Do you support big businesses?

[Aqualung]

Comprehend,
I tend to agree but it seems for the most part the more money one makes the more they spend.

Which is their fault, not the fault of big businesses.

 

[nutshell]

I would be interested to see what they spend their money on. I have never needed two jobs to support myself, one has always done the trick... even when I was sweeping floors.

There are two columns in a ledger, the in and the out. Usually the problem is not with the in column when you have a job... people waste money on junk they don't need. I am always amazed when I drive past a trailer park and see the satallite dishes on all the trailers and the $30,000 cars in the driveway. No discipline whatever, I also bet they spend a fortune on beer and cigarettes and fast food and other frivilous expenses.

I have no tv service, we have one car, I haven't bought $200 worth of clothes for myself in the last 10 years. I haven't bought new shoes since high school. I don't throw things away that I can re-use. We cook meals instead of eating out, we buy our food and other things in bulk. You would be amazed with the things I have purchased from Deseret Industries.

work hard and don't blow your money...

I encourage you to watch the minimum wage episode of "30 Days." You might rethink your assumption that everyone who is poor is blowing their money.

 

[jacquie4000]

Which is their fault, not the fault of big businesses

Hmmmmmmmm I don't recall saying it was the fault of big business.

 

[Comprehend]

How about this. My husband and I make way below the poverty line (from what I've been told); we didn't even have to file taxes this year because we didn't make enough. He works full time and I work part-time as much as my health will allow. There are some months we either choose rent or food. Luckily those months don't happen too often. We work, but we are still in poverty.

you *almost* always have to file taxes no matter how much you earned. I don't know your exact situation but if you don't file taxes, you are very possibly breaking the law.

I doubt you are below the poverty line:
Husband - 40 hours a week * 50 weeks a year * $6.25 = $12,500
Soup - (fill in the blank)

Census poverty line for household of two under the age of 65 - $13,500

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/threshld/thresh06.htmlhttp://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/threshld/thresh04.html

Lastly, you guys are students, how much do you spend on school each year? Have you considered getting a student loan rather than wondering which bills to pay? do you go out to eat? do you buy new clothes? do you have TV? Do you pay for your internet service? Are there cheaper places to live? How much meat do you buy? Do you buy food in bulk? Do you have a budget? do you stick to your budget? where do you shop? Do you buy the cheapest food? do you go out to movies? do you rent movies? do you buy snack food? soda pop? chips? Golf? bowling? concert tickets? DVD's CD's?

if you think about it, if you are seriously down to food/rent. I bet there are a lot less important things you can cut out. I have.

 

[Comprehend]

Comprehend,
I tend to agree but it seems for the most part the more money one makes the more they spend.

yup. I agree. people lack discipline. The United States actually has a negative savings rate. That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. One day, those who spend more than they earn will really regret it...

 

[Comprehend]

I encourage you to watch the minimum wage episode of "30 Days." You might rethink your assumption that everyone who is poor is blowing their money.

I don't have TV... you will notice however, that I did say it is *usually* a problem with the "out column". Sometimes it is a problem with the "in column". In that case, you are probably living in a high cost area and you might want to re-think living there if you don't have the skills necessary to work a job that pays the bills.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

yup. I agree. people lack discipline. The United States actually has a negative savings rate.

Which could be attributed to big business. Culture is one of the biggest influences on a person, and our culture is heavily based on commercialism. Companies know how to make people want their products, and use that knowledge effectively.

That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

Just as a suggestion, using the word "retarded" in a negative manner may be insulting to a lot of people.

 

[nutshell]

I don't have TV...

Then you're missing out on an educational opportunity. I'll see if I can find a transcript or other description.

 

[jacquie4000]

yup. I agree. people lack discipline. The United States actually has a negative savings rate. That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. One day, those who spend more than they earn will really regret it...

I know I am a Mortgage broker so I see alot of people's debt load.

Which could be attributed to big business. Culture is one of the biggest influences on a person, and our culture is heavily based on commercialism. Companies know how to make people want their products, and use that knowledge effectively.

Guitar's Cry ....While I do agree with this statement at the same time, myself included am guilty of giving my son more than he needs. Kids today Get twice as
much junk then when I was growing up and expect it too. My son luckily does not
expect it. But you would be amazed when you tell people about their budget and
maybe they only want to spend this much on a house not X dollars looking at all cases.
Maybe a spouse will be sick...etc. They don't care they want the max they are allowed.
This is not always so but it does happen alot.

I make good money. I only have one credit card and my house is paid off. I am sure I overspend at times. But I am realistic and save and have my house paid and no debt.
I am not rich either just carefull. I have two children I support by myself as well.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Guitar's Cry ....While I do agree with this statement at the same time, myself included am guilty of giving my son more than he needs. Kids today Get twice as
much junk then when I was growing up and expect it too. My son luckily does not
expect it. But you would be amazed when you tell people about their budget and
maybe they only want to spend this much on a house not X dollars looking at all cases.
Maybe a spouse will be sick...etc. They don't care they want the max they are allowed.
This is not always so but it does happen alot.

I completely agree. I think a lot of this is due to cultural influence, though. I mean, commercialization permeates our society so much. It is no wonder that people feel like they need things like television and the internet--both of which are heavily ad-based. Television and the internet are excellent educational tools, but they are also excellent commercialization tools. Look at the popularity of Fox versus PBS. Which has the better educational value, and which has the most fluff?

I'm glad to hear your son doesn't expect a lot of junk. I'm sure his mom's influence was very positive.

 

[Quiddity]

But I don't see much greater good coming from big corporations. Mostly all they do is buy up or run off small businesses, and then use their monopolies to exploit everyone for profit. Big business has ruined music radio, and is on the way toward ruining the music scene all together by "manufacturing" canned "stars". Big business has severely damaged the visual arts by stealing every eye-catching image ever produced and using them to tell lies and sell crap. Big business is destroying our government with wholesale bribery that has become so outrageous that they can now write their own legislation and then pay off the politicians to pass it into law in the middle of the night when no one is looking. Big businesses think nothing of producing extremely unhealthy snacks for kids, and then advertising to them during children's programs. And they routinely bribe school boards with computers and whatever to let them sell unhealthy junk food to kids in their schools. They even bribe the schools to let them show commercials to the kids while they're in the classroom.

There really isn't anything that these big corporations won't stoop to for the sake of their own profits, so I have a hard time seeing how they benefit families or anyone else, for that matter. The only reason they get so big is so that they can create monopolies and drive off the competition. Sure, they provide jobs, but ten small businesses would have provided more and better jobs than the one mega-business that drove those ten small businesses off. And healthy competition gets replaced by an unhealthy monopoly.

Earlier you said “I have to say that the size of the company is secondary to the intention”. If this is true, it is but a small part of the equation. A small company has just as much a capability of being greedy as a larger company. Granted, the larger companies have a better chance of getting away with more, but I don’t believe the solution is being anti-big corporation. I don’t buy the view that all big corporations are evil and greedy. Sure some probably are, but I also believe some are not.

I worked for a 500+ employee corporation and it was probably one of the best companies I worked at. The owner did plenty of little things that showed he cared about his employees. And I’ve also worked for some pretty greedy 50+ size companies. They did just about everything to get tax breaks and getting a raise was nearly impossible.

So although I agree with your objections, I really think your focus on large corporations won’t solve the problem. The problem doesn’t lie in large corporations, but in the hearts of men.

 

[PureX]

Earlier you said “I have to say that the size of the company is secondary to the intention”. If this is true, it is but a small part of the equation. A small company has just as much a capability of being greedy as a larger company. Granted, the larger companies have a better chance of getting away with more, but I don’t believe the solution is being anti-big corporation. I don’t buy the view that all big corporations are evil and greedy. Sure some probably are, but I also believe some are not.

I worked for a 500+ employee corporation and it was probably one of the best companies I worked at. The owner did plenty of little things that showed he cared about his employees. And I’ve also worked for some pretty greedy 50+ size companies. They did just about everything to get tax breaks and getting a raise was nearly impossible.

So although I agree with your objections, I really think your focus on large corporations won’t solve the problem. The problem doesn’t lie in large corporations, but in the hearts of men.

Well, I do agree that the problem is greed, not size. But I also believe that the bigger and more impersonal businesses become, the more likely are to measure all things by their bottom line. It's just common sense.

If I own a small grocery store, and my own family's livelihood, as well as my personal reputation in the community depends on the way I treat my customers, then I am far more likely to treat people well, even though it may cost me a little bit on the bottom line. I will understand clearly that there is more going on as commerce is taking place than the money changing hands. I will understand that my position in the community, and as a man among my fellow men, is also at stake. And that the well-being of not just myself, but of my community as a whole depends to some degree on the way I treat the people I'm doing business with.

But if I live on a big estate in Florida, and run my chain of grocery stores from a private office in a private office park, through dozens of middle managers, then I will likely never even see my own customers. And I certainly will never see myself as any sort of a part of their community. My only measure of success with them will be how much product I sell them, and my only measure of myself as a man will be my bank account. And in such an instance, it'll become very easy for me to see cutting corners as just "good business", because it'll sell more product and increase my bank account. And we have already seen many of the rationalizations and justifications for this thinking already in this thread. Greed is very easy to justify in America because most businesses are too big and too impersonal to see or care about anything other than that bottom line. And they've been justifying it all in the name of profit for a very long time.

We live in a culture based on willful ignorance and greed, and large corporations are a clear example of that, and many small one as well. I'm sure there will be some exceptions. There will ALWAYS be some exceptions to any generality. But the vast majority of large businesses use their sales as the only measure of their value to the community, and their bank accounts as the only measure of success for the owners and share-holders. And those are willfully ignorant ways of measuring the value of any commercial enterprise, or of measuring the social worth of the people running them.

Ideally, the definition of wealth should be having the ability and responsibility to be generous; not having the ability to do whatever one wants, however and whenever one wants to. The more powerful and successful a man or a corporation becomes, the more generous and benevolent they can be. This is th measure of true wealth and success. Not greed. But as America becomes more and more perverse, up becomes down, and right becomes wrong, and greed becomes good.

 

[Aqualung]

Hmmmmmmmm I don't recall saying it was the fault of big business.

You didn't. I wasn't arguing, just adding.

 

[jacquie4000]

You didn't. I wasn't arguing, just adding.

No Problem

 

[Quiddity]

Well, I do agree that the problem is greed, not size. But I also believe that the bigger and more impersonal businesses become, the more likely are to measure all things by their bottom line. It's just common sense.

If I own a small grocery store, and my own family's livelihood, as well as my personal reputation in the community depends on the way I treat my customers, then I am far more likely to treat people well, even though it may cost me a little bit on the bottom line. I will understand clearly that there is more going on as commerce is taking place than the money changing hands. I will understand that my position in the community, and as a man among my fellow men, is also at stake. And that the well-being of not just myself, but of my community as a whole depends to some degree on the way I treat the people I'm doing business with.

But if I live on a big estate in Florida, and run my chain of grocery stores from a private office in a private office park, through dozens of middle managers, then I will likely never even see my own customers. And I certainly will never see myself as any sort of a part of their community. My only measure of success with them will be how much product I sell them, and my only measure of myself as a man will be my bank account. And in such an instance, it'll become very easy for me to see cutting corners as just "good business", because it'll sell more product and increase my bank account. And we have already seen many of the rationalizations and justifications for this thinking already in this thread. Greed is very easy to justify in America because most businesses are too big and too impersonal to see or care about anything other than that bottom line. And they've been justifying it all in the name of profit for a very long time.

We live in a culture based on willful ignorance and greed, and large corporations are a clear example of that, and many small one as well. I'm sure there will be some exceptions. There will ALWAYS be some exceptions to any generality. But the vast majority of large businesses use their sales as the only measure of their value to the community, and their bank accounts as the only measure of success for the owners and share-holders. And those are willfully ignorant ways of measuring the value of any commercial enterprise, or of measuring the social worth of the people running them.

Ideally, the definition of wealth should be having the ability and responsibility to be generous; not having the ability to do whatever one wants, however and whenever one wants to. The more powerful and successful a man or a corporation becomes, the more generous and benevolent they can be. This is th measure of true wealth and success. Not greed. But as America becomes more and more perverse, up becomes down, and right becomes wrong, and greed becomes good.

I like the family and personal feeling as much (if not more) as the next guy, but I’m not about to penalize a corporation for failing to care and provide such an environment. If I don’t like how they are doing business then I go elsewhere. The market and inward turmoil has a tendency of flushing them out. In fact, I have a good short story to share to show you just how this happens.

The company I used to work for provided some of the best benefits: 100% education paid, 401k, another retirement fund separate from 401k, they paid for car pooling, we had bonuses and the end of the year, got a card every holiday (along with a turkey), we had free access to a gym and karate instructor, free bread/milk/butter/water/sodas/coffee in the break room. It was a nice place to work. It’s also the largest company I’ve worked at. On top of that, you felt the family and personal environment. Great company eh? Exception? Well, I’ve worked in the manufacturing Industry long enough to have heard numerous co-workers talk about a great large company they’ve worked for. So at the very least, people have worked for large companies and have been happy.

In the case of the company I used to work for, it was forced to send product over seas because Wal-Mart decided to compete with them. So as soon as product went over seas, so did the jobs and benefits. Do I think this was due to greed? Not at all. Because I was so involved in the setting up of manufacturing processes in China, I know just how hard management tried to keep things in the US.

So, although I know super companies can be greedy, I’ve been in the manufacturing Industry long enough to see what causes companies to grow or fall. Greed certainly is not on top of the list. Poor management, bad decisions, marketing shifts, failure to go over seas, etc. All these are far more probable. Ideally, I think what you speak of is probably stuff that more then likely happens in the fortune 500 companies, which is really only a very small percent of the thousands of manufacturing facilities.

Truth is that your perception of the evil corporatist seems to have little merit to those of us that work in the manufacturing Industry. But assuming your perception is more accurate then what I’ve experienced, I still don’t see anything you’ve said would fix the problem.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Well, I do agree that the problem is greed, not size. But I also believe that the bigger and more impersonal businesses become, the more likely are to measure all things by their bottom line. It's just common sense.

So when an employee expects to be paid more than market price for their labor, is that not greed as well?

The bottom line is what enables big business to aquire loans and expand. Less profitable businesses that are not prudent with their bottom line fail.

 

[PureX]

So when an employee expects to be paid more than market price for their labor, is that not greed as well?

There is no "market price" for labor. A group of people get together and form a company, to engage in what they hope to be a worthwhile commercial endeavor. If it works out, and the endeavor is a positive experience for all concerned, then the employees should share in the rewards. If it does not work out, then the enterprise should be stopped. Commerce is people getting together and trading their skills to the mutual benefit of all. The CEO is trading his/her skill just as is everyone else. The investors are trading their skills, too, in the form of financial support and return requirements. And everyone deserves to be compensated each according to their risk and responsibility. If the venture generates a lot of value then everyone, including even the customers, should gain in the rewards.

You're still thinking in terms of giving everyone else in the venture as little compensation as possible, so the owners/shareholders can get as much as they can. This is exploitation, not commerce. And it doesn't matter what the other people involved in the deal agree to.

The bottom line is what enables big business to acquire loans and expand. Less profitable businesses that are not prudent with their bottom line fail.

If a commercial enterprise is viable and produces value for everyone, then investors should invest in it, and they will gain from doing so. If the commercial enterprise does not produce value for everyone involved, it is a failed commercial enterprise, even if it produces value for some of the people involved at the expense of others. Commerce is an exchange that benefits everyone, NOT just the few.

 

[PureX]

I like the family and personal feeling as much (if not more) as the next guy, but I’m not about to penalize a corporation for failing to care and provide such an environment. If I don’t like how they are doing business then I go elsewhere. The market and inward turmoil has a tendency of flushing them out. In fact, I have a good short story to share to show you just how this happens.

The company I used to work for provided some of the best benefits: 100% education paid, 401k, another retirement fund separate from 401k, they paid for car pooling, we had bonuses and the end of the year, got a card every holiday (along with a turkey), we had free access to a gym and karate instructor, free bread/milk/butter/water/sodas/coffee in the break room. It was a nice place to work. It’s also the largest company I’ve worked at. On top of that, you felt the family and personal environment. Great company eh? Exception? Well, I’ve worked in the manufacturing Industry long enough to have heard numerous coworkers talk about a great large company they’ve worked for. So at the very least, people have worked for large companies and have been happy.

In the case of the company I used to work for, it was forced to send product over seas because Wal-Mart decided to compete with them. So as soon as product went over seas, so did the jobs and benefits. Do I think this was due to greed? Not at all. Because I was so involved in the setting up of manufacturing processes in China, I know just how hard management tried to keep things in the US.

So, although I know super companies can be greedy, I’ve been in the manufacturing Industry long enough to see what causes companies to grow or fall. Greed certainly is not on top of the list. Poor management, bad decisions, marketing shifts, failure to go over seas, etc. All these are far more probable. Ideally, I think what you speak of is probably stuff that more then likely happens in the fortune 500 companies, which is really only a very small percent of the thousands of manufacturing facilities.

Truth is that your perception of the evil corporatist seems to have little merit to those of us that work in the manufacturing Industry. But assuming your perception is more accurate then what I’ve experienced, I still don’t see anything you’ve said would fix the problem.

I live in the industrial belt (Pennsylvania) and in the last year I have so far seen 6 manufacturing companies in my own small town close their doors to move out of the country. And in EVERY CASE these companies were reasonably profitable to highly profitable, and were not being squeezed by cut-rate prices from other over-seas manufacturing or from high wages. A few of these companies were unionized, but most were not, and together they represent many hundreds of jobs in an area of the country where wages are already very low because jobs are scarce.

So why are the companies moving? The answer is greed. The people who own them know that if they move to Mexico they can get people to work for peanuts, and even though they'll have to train them all, by building a new plant they can automate to the point that most of the workers will just push buttons and pull parts out of machines. So in the end they will save lots of money on labor that will go into their own pockets. And they made this decision at the direct expense of their own neighbors and fellow citizens, who have lost their jobs a livelihoods, and are now having a very difficult time providing for their families.

And when these companies get to Mexico, they will exploit those workers, too, because they won't have any unions or legal protections with which to fight back. So they won't be getting any sort of medical coverage or retirement plan, and they'll be fired at will for whatever reasons the company chooses. And if all this wasn't bad enough, they'll use their cheap labor and big profits to cut prices against the competing companies that remained in the U.S., forcing some of them out of business, which will ultimately raise prices permanently, and will cost even m ore American citizens their jobs and livelihoods, and cause their families to suffer.

And this is happening at an epidemic pace, and has been happening for years. Greed is causing American businesses to sell out their own fellow American for profit, and no one is even speaking out against it, because we've all been taught that "greed is good" and that "profits are always sacred". Nothing in America has ever been allowed to stand in the way of corporate profits, even when those profits bring severe hardship to the American people.

You can bring up the exceptions til the cows come home, but the fact is that our own corporate greed is killing us. Every time we go to a big chain store to buy something because it costs a few pennies less, we're putting Americans out of work and out of business, because the goods those big chain stores are selling come from out of the country, and the reason they can sell them so cheap is that they pay their employees low wages, fewer benefits, and offer less service. And eventually that will lower our own wages, and drive local businesses to close, forcing those people who lost their better-paying jobs to go work for the very chain that drove their jobs away. It all becomes a vicious cycle of greed, and the end result is that a few really nasty, greedy people get very, very rich, while everyone else is being driven down the economic ladder.

And this has been going on in America for so long now that most of us think it's supposed to be like this. Or that it can't be any other way. But that's nonsense, and it's justifying gross perversity. Those good companies that you worked for prove that it's not necessary to screw everyone else over to make a profit. And your story also proves that had we made such acts of rampant greed illegal, or at least discouraged it with protections, that company would likely still be in business.

The current lie that these greedy corporations are telling is that they have to behave like pigs to survive, and even if this were true (which it isn't) the reason it would be true is BECAUSE they're all already behaving like pigs. Greed is like violence, in fact it's a form of violence, and as we all know, violence pretty much always begets more violence. And in the end the only way to stop this kind of self-reinforcing cycle is to simply stop it. Just stop it. But we can't even begin to stop it unless we can at least recognize that it's happening, and stop making excuses for it. If we don't do something soon, our own greed is going to destroy this nation, and that's a fact.

 

[nutshell]

There is no "market price" for labor.

Of course there is. As a former human resources professional I was in close touch with the labor market and it functions on the same principles of supply and demand that everything else does in our economy.

 

[nutshell]

I live in the industrial belt (Pennsylvania) and in the last year I have so far seen 6 manufacturing companies in my own small town close their doors to move out of the country. And in EVERY CASE these companies were reasonably profitable to highly profitable, and were not being squeezed by cut-rate prices from other over-seas manufacturing or from high wages. A few of these companies were unionized, but most were not, and together they represent many hundreds of jobs in an area of the country where wages are already very low because jobs are scarce.

So why are the companies moving? The answer is greed. The people who own them know that if they move to Mexico they can get people to work for peanuts, and even though they'll have to train them all, by building a new plant they can automate to the point that most of the workers will just push buttons and pull parts out of machines. So in the end they will save lots of money on labor that will go into their own pockets. And they made this decision at the direct expense of their own neighbors and fellow citizens, who have lost their jobs a livelihoods, and are now having a very difficult time providing for their families.

And when these companies get to Mexico, they will exploit those workers, too, because they won't have any unions or legal protections with which to fight back. So they won't be getting any sort of medical coverage or retirement plan, and they'll be fired at will for whatever reasons the company chooses. And if all this wasn't bad enough, they'll use their cheap labor and big profits to cut prices against the competing companies that remained in the U.S., forcing some of them out of business, which will ultimately raise prices permanently, and will cost even m ore American citizens their jobs and livelihoods, and cause their families to suffer.

And this is happening at an epidemic pace, and has been happening for years. Greed is causing American businesses to sell out their own fellow American for profit, and no one is even speaking out against it, because we've all been taught that "greed is good" and that "profits are always sacred". Nothing in America has ever been allowed to stand in the way of corporate profits, even when those profits bring severe hardship to the American people.

You can bring up the exceptions til the cows come home, but the fact is that our own corporate greed is killing us. Every time we go to a big chain store to buy something because it costs a few pennies less, we're putting Americans out of work and out of business, because the goods those big chain stores are selling come from out of the country, and the reason they can sell them so cheap is that they pay their employees low wages, fewer benefits, and offer less service. And eventually that will lower our own wages, and drive local businesses to close, forcing those people who lost their better-paying jobs to go work for the very chain that drove their jobs away. It all becomes a vicious cycle of greed, and the end result is that a few really nasty, greedy people get very, very rich, while everyone else is being driven down the economic ladder.

And this has been going on in America for so long now that most of us think it's supposed to be like this. Or that it can't be any other way. But that's nonsense, and it's justifying gross perversity. Those good companies that you worked for prove that it's not necessary to screw everyone else over to make a profit. And your story also proves that had we made such acts of rampant greed illegal, or at least discouraged it with protections, that company would likely still be in business.

The current lie that these greedy corporations are telling is that they have to behave like pigs to survive, and even if this were true (which it isn't) the reason it would be true is BECAUSE they're all already behaving like pigs. Greed is like violence, in fact it's a form of violence, and as we all know, violence pretty much always begets more violence. And in the end the only way to stop this kind of self-reinforcing cycle is to simply stop it. Just stop it. But we can't even begin to stop it unless we can at least recognize that it's happening, and stop making excuses for it. If we don't do something soon, our own greed is going to destroy this nation, and that's a fact.

There is nothing wrong with looking out for #1 and maximizing efficiencies. Part of globalization means industry is going to countries that were like the U.S. a hundred years ago. We must adapt and become a service-based economy and put the time and effort into the service-revolution that was put into the industrial-revolution.