Do you see the light? Descendant of Hasidic scholar teaches ‘Primordial Torah’

[sun rise]

I wonder if @RabbiO knows of Zvi Ish-Shalom and what perspective he can offer:

Do you see the light? Descendant of Hasidic scholar teaches ‘Primordial Torah’

In his 20s, Zvi Ish-Shalom underwent a spiritual transformation rooted in Kabbalah; his new book offers an ‘experiential shift in consciousness’ – for Jews and non-Jews alike

The now 47-year-old Kabbalah scholar and teacher Zvi Ish-Shalom was in his early 20s when he began experimenting with esoteric Kabbalistic practices and suddenly found himself moving through a period of “profound energetic and psychic upheaval.”

“It’s all fun and games until you lose an ‘I,’” said Ish-Shalom playfully, during a recent interview with The Times of Israel. “And then it gets pretty terrifying.”

The entirety of that experience, which included shifts in how he perceived reality, would lead to a “cataclysmic shift” in his relationship to God, Torah and his Jewish lineage.

“Just as one can experience deep intimacy with another, and feel oneself melt with another, I experienced that with the divine light,” said Ish-Shalom. “And I experienced it in a way that, to my senses, was absolutely 100 percent real.”
...
Already trained in the classics at McGill University, Ish-Shalom enrolled in a graduate program in Jewish mysticism at Brandeis University as a way to deepen his knowledge of Kabbalah. Simultaneously, he studied with the late Tosher Rebbe of Broisbriand, Quebec, in the Hasidic lineage of his great-grandfather. Though he ultimately received rabbinical ordination, Ish-Shalom says that wasn’t his intent when he began his studies. Rather, he says, he was searching to better understand the spiritual transformation he was going through.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Kabbalah is pretty interesting to me. I've only given it a surface-level examination, but there are some fairly profound ideas emanating from it. One trend I've noticed is that most people teaching Kabbalah are honest and forthright about the (contested) origins of the Zohar. (The Zohar is an important/central text in Kabbalism.)

It always bodes well with me when a religious movement strives first and foremost to be honest about what they teach. It makes me think they are also honest in their investigation into the meaning of the Zohar.

 

[PureX]

People have long had such experiences both within and without a religious framework. But they do nothing and pretty much mean nothing to anyone else because they have no direct effect on anyone else.

It's like someone telling me that Moses parted the Red Sea and that Jesus rise from the dead. Well, ... OK, ... so what? It has no effect on me or on the world in which I am living.

Does hearing of these experiences by others mean we should go in pursuit of them? That would appear to be quite foolish, as that course of action is as likely to result in disappointment or even insanity as it is to result in any wondrous revelation. And even if it does result in a wondrous revelation, what then? What do we do with that? Do we run around telling everyone else about it so they can ... do what? Go chasing after their own wondrous transcendent experience?

I don't question the authenticity of these kinds of experiences because I have no way or desire to do that. But I do question their actual value, both to the individual and to humanity as a whole. Because they appear to me to be an invitation to self-indulgence to the point of sometimes even self-destruction. I think they become an 'easy way out' for people. A spiritual 'shortcut'. A way of escaping from the fear and confusion of the human condition that's not dissimilar to some exotic drug. An experience that ultimately is really nothing more than a euphoric distraction from the truth of who and what we are. And from the truth of the human predicament.

Sorry to sound so negative. But as someone that has some experience with this sort of thing, and a long time to consider it, this is how I see it.

 

[vulcanlogician]

A way of escaping from the fear and confusion of the human condition that's not dissimilar to some exotic drug.

Idk, man. "Escaping confusion" doesn't sound like all that bad of a thing to me. But then again, neither do exotic drugs.

I don't think anyone's advocating a lifelong navel gazing session here. Sometimes profound experiences lift someone out of a funk and allow them to return to life refreshed and energized. This can also positively impact the people around them. Because they are no longer "afraid and confused" they are more able to live their lives properly.

Such experiences don't even need to be religious in nature. Could be romance or creative inspiration that liberates someone... but religious experiences might get the job done too.

 

[PureX]

Idk, man. "Escaping confusion" doesn't sound like all that bad of a thing to me. But then again, neither do exotic drugs.

The problem is that the escape resolves nothing. The "trip" ends and you're back where you were, without having done anything about it. We can't learn or progress by escaping. We need to stay here and face the adversity, to learn from it.

I don't think anyone's advocating a lifelong navel gazing session here. Sometimes profound experiences lift someone out of a funk and allow them to return to life refreshed and energized. This can also positively impact the people around them. Because they are no longer "afraid and confused" they are more able to live their lives properly.

Yes, sometimes. But again, after that, then what? Do it again ... if we can? Recommend it to others ... if they can? And now the 'chase' is on. Like an addiction.

Such experiences don't even need to be religious in nature. Could be romance or creative inspiration that liberates someone... but religious experiences might get the job done too.

Revelations can be good, or bad. So, not necessarily something we want to pursue. And anyway, it seems the more we chase after them, the more they allude us. And I have witnessed more than one person begin fooling themselves into thinking they were getting "revelations" when they were just letting their own imaginations run away with them.

 

[Thea]

“Do you see the light?”


Yes. I have seen it several times.
The first time was when I was in mortal danger. I believe the light saved me.

 

[sun rise]

I don't question the authenticity of these kinds of experiences because I have no way or desire to do that. But I do question their actual value, both to the individual and to humanity as a whole. Because they appear to me to be an invitation to self-indulgence to the point of sometimes even self-destruction. I think they become an 'easy way out' for people. A spiritual 'shortcut'. A way of escaping from the fear and confusion of the human condition that's not dissimilar to some exotic drug. An experience that ultimately is really nothing more than a euphoric distraction from the truth of who and what we are. And from the truth of the human predicament.

In a play from a long time ago, I remember this: "What is the good of turning up all the burners on your stove if you are not cooking anything". People can have all sorts of reactions to transcendent experiences But unless the experience makes a positive change in someone, much if not most of the value is lost.

There's a story I read in the Facebook group "Lights of Kaballah" which illustrates it. Someone went to the Baal Shem Tov and said he wanted to see Elijah the Prophet. The Baal Shem Tov told the man to gather food and children's clothes and take them to a house along with how and when to deliver them. He did what was asked but related that he had not seen Elijah. So the instruction was repeated. The man went back to that house and this is the end of the story:

This time, he went earlier and stood in front of the door, listening. Inside he heard children crying, “Mommy, we’re hungry! We haven’t eaten the whole day! How can we fast for Yom Kippur?” “Children!” said the mother. “Do you remember you were crying before Rosh Hashanah that you had no food or clothes? And I told you, ‘Trust in G‑d! He’ll send Elijah the Prophet, who’ll bring you food and clothing and everything else you need!’ Wasn’t I right? Didn’t Elijah come and bring you food and clothing? He stayed with us for two days! Now you’re crying again that you’re hungry. I promise you that Elijah will come now, too, and bring you food!”

Then the chassid understood what his master, the Baal Shem Tov, had meant. And he knocked on the door.

 

[dybmh]

This is the part which needs empahsized and was omitted from the OP. Its in the linked article.

"He admitted that at times he worried he was going crazy, something Kabbalistic texts warn practitioners about."

Choosing to teach those who may not be grounded, mature, mentally healthy, abstaining from drugs ( including marijuana ) is extremely risky. Traditionally Kabbalah is taught one on one, to those over 40, with a family. The student needs to be an observant Jew, who is fluent in Torah and Talmud. These precautions are not arbitrary.

Following the Jewish commandments forces a person to be grounded, living a structured life, and, requries them to take breaks from the mystical concepts which can take over a person's mind. Following the commandments requires being part of a Jewish community. The community supports a person and anchors them to reality.

Fluency in Talmud is required, because learning Talmud trains a person to safely depart from their current frame of mind and approach topics from the perspective of the sages. This slowly and gradually accustoms the mind to a form of brief dissassociation. Also, learning Talmud includes learning Aramaic, and so the source text, the Zohar, can be understood in its true form, not based on someone else's commentary.

I hope and pray that no one gets hurt because this individual has chosen to follow their inner desires. They said they felt like they were going crazy, and now they want to share that with others. That to me sounds reckless and selfish.

The best description for what can happen to people embarking on the mystical without preparation or a proper teacher comes from the eastern practices. See: Zou huo ru mo - Wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

There's a story I read in the Facebook group "Lights of Kaballah" which illustrates it. Someone went to the Baal Shem Tov and said he wanted to see Elijah the Prophet. The Baal Shem Tov told the man to gather food and children's clothes and take them to a house along with how and when to deliver them. He did what was asked but related that he had not seen Elijah. So the instruction was repeated. The man went back to that house and this is the end of the story:

This time, he went earlier and stood in front of the door, listening. Inside he heard children crying, “Mommy, we’re hungry! We haven’t eaten the whole day! How can we fast for Yom Kippur?” “Children!” said the mother. “Do you remember you were crying before Rosh Hashanah that you had no food or clothes? And I told you, ‘Trust in G‑d! He’ll send Elijah the Prophet, who’ll bring you food and clothing and everything else you need!’ Wasn’t I right? Didn’t Elijah come and bring you food and clothing? He stayed with us for two days! Now you’re crying again that you’re hungry. I promise you that Elijah will come now, too, and bring you food!”

This is Chassdius, not to be confused with Kabbalah. Chassidus is based on Kabbalah and applies it in a safe manner.

 

[PureX]

In a play from a long time ago, I remember this: "What is the good of turning up all the burners on your stove if you are not cooking anything". People can have all sorts of reactions to transcendent experiences But unless the experience makes a positive change in someone, much if not most of the value is lost.

There's a story I read in the Facebook group "Lights of Kaballah" which illustrates it. Someone went to the Baal Shem Tov and said he wanted to see Elijah the Prophet. The Baal Shem Tov told the man to gather food and children's clothes and take them to a house along with how and when to deliver them. He did what was asked but related that he had not seen Elijah. So the instruction was repeated. The man went back to that house and this is the end of the story:

This time, he went earlier and stood in front of the door, listening. Inside he heard children crying, “Mommy, we’re hungry! We haven’t eaten the whole day! How can we fast for Yom Kippur?” “Children!” said the mother. “Do you remember you were crying before Rosh Hashanah that you had no food or clothes? And I told you, ‘Trust in G‑d! He’ll send Elijah the Prophet, who’ll bring you food and clothing and everything else you need!’ Wasn’t I right? Didn’t Elijah come and bring you food and clothing? He stayed with us for two days! Now you’re crying again that you’re hungry. I promise you that Elijah will come now, too, and bring you food!”

Then the chassid understood what his master, the Baal Shem Tov, had meant. And he knocked on the door.

Wow, that sounds like an Isaac Bashevis Singer short story. I LOVE his stories! Many of which are about the inexplicable nature of 'revelation'. I made many sculptures over the years based on the theme of revelation.

​

 

[sun rise]

This is the part which needs empahsized and was omitted from the OP. Its in the linked article.

"He admitted that at times he worried he was going crazy, something Kabbalistic texts warn practitioners about."

Choosing to teach those who may not be grounded, mature, mentally healthy, abstaining from drugs ( including marijuana ) is extremely risky. Traditionally Kabbalah is taught one on one, to those over 40, with a family. The student needs to be an observant Jew, who is fluent in Torah and Talmud. These precautions are not arbitrary.

Following the Jewish commandments forces a person to be grounded, living a structured life, and, requries them to take breaks from the mystical concepts which can take over a person's mind. Following the commandments requires being part of a Jewish community. The community supports a person and anchors them to reality.

Fluency in Talmud is required, because learning Talmud trains a person to safely depart from their current frame of mind and approach topics from the perspective of the sages. This slowly and gradually accustoms the mind to a form of brief dissassociation. Also, learning Talmud includes learning Aramaic, and so the source text, the Zohar, can be understood in its true form, not based on someone else's commentary.

I hope and pray that no one gets hurt because this individual has chosen to follow their inner desires. They said they felt like they were going crazy, and now they want to share that with others. That to me sounds reckless and selfish.

The best description for what can happen to people embarking on the mystical without preparation or a proper teacher comes from the eastern practices. See: Zou huo ru mo - Wikipedia

That sounds analogous to my understanding from Eastern sources as well as psychology. When I was studying psychology I volunteered to be a subject in a guided imagery exploration. The image was the house which is classic for the conception of ourselves. I explored the ground floor and then the attic with no issues. When I went into the basement the way out disappeared, a hole opened to the void and I knew that the only escape was to go insane. To make it short, I did get out but the teachers gave me a card to contact them if needed and I basically was freaked out for two days. Some techniques are very powerful even at the psychological level.

Some practices are appropriate for anyone and some require proper preparation and the support of a teacher/guru/murshid/tzaddik. I was curious if someone knew the person and the book and could speak from knowledge.