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Featured Do You Recognize We're in a Time of Wickedness?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Apr 1, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    18.9%
  2. No

    35 vote(s)
    66.0%
  3. Other...?

    8 vote(s)
    15.1%
  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    As to how do you get a spiritual Israel out of Matthew 23:38, God has not abanded his people Israel.

    God has not cast away his people Israel, which he foreknew, But God has reserved to himself seven thousand people of Israel.
    Romans 11:2-5.

    As to how do you get a spiritual Israel out of Romans 2:28,29, Paul's speaking about Circumcision, How just because people Circumcised themselves, does not mean anything, any more, it's having the Circumcision of your heart in the right place for God.

    There is no such a thing as a spiritual Israel. Who ever told you that.
    I know the 7th day Adventist Church teaches that. Saying how they are the new Israel.
    Have you read in the book of Revelation, how those that call themselves Jews (Israel) and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

    What your trying to do, is steal the birth right from Israel, Which only belongs to Israel.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, the abandoned religious ' house ' of worship of Matthew 23:38 is fleshly natural un-faithful Israel.
    1 Peter 2:5,10 is Not about fleshly natural Israel.
    Since Pentecost (Galatians 6:16) it is about ' spiritual Israel', the Christian congregation - Romans 2:28-29.
    Please notice that 'earthly Jerusalem' is No longer the seat of government, but according to Galatians 4:26 it is now Jerusalem 'above' or 'heavenly Jerusalem' where resurrected Jesus is.
    So, all of 1st Peter chapter 2 is about spiritual Israel aka the Christian congregation which is that ' spiritual house ' of worship of verse 5 and that ' holy nation ' of verse 9.
    The 'living stones' of verse 5 is in reference to the faithful apostles.
    Verse 5 ties in nicely with Isaiah 56:6-7.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Peter at 1 Peter 2:9,5 tells us about ' spiritual Israel '
    Please notice Romans 2:28-29 is Not talking about literal circumcision.

    I did Not give mention of ' spiritual Israel ' out of Matthew 23:38 but that God abandoned fleshly un-faithful Israel.
    Romans 11:4 is in reference to 1 Kings 19:18.
    Rejection of natural Israel is Not total rejection - Romans 1:1-16, because anyone, Jew or Not, can repent and become part of the Christian congregation, part of Spiritual Israel.
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That of 1Peter 2:5,9,10, is not about Israel at all
    Had you back to the beginning of
    Chapters 1 & 2, and pick up what the subject is about.
    You would find the subject is about those who believe in Christ Jesus.
    And not about a spiritual Israel, as you have been told.

    Verse 5 --"You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual Sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ"
    If you notice ( You also) this being those who believe in Christ Jesus. Which is not about a Spiritual Israel, as you been told.

    If you had back to the beginning of Chapter 6 of Galatians and pick up what the subject is about. You would haved found that Paul wrote to the Galatian church.
    Note in Verse 11--"You see how large a letter I have written unto you with my own hand"

    Paul written the whole book of Galatians to the Galatian church.

    Paul's letting them know in Verse 16, that as many of the Galatian church, has walk to what he has written, Peace be on them.
    Paul not leaving out Israel, and upon the Israel of God.
    This is not in anyway in reference to any Spiritual Israel. So I do not where you get this being in reference to a spiritual Israel.
    If I may ask, who told you this of Galatians 6:16 As being a spiritual Israel anyway?

    Romans 2:28,29, has nothing to do with any spiritual Israel as you been told.

    If you had back to the beginning of chapter 2, you would haved found, Paul speaking to those who are judging others, All the while they are doing the same thing, as those they are juding.

    Verse 3--"And thinks you this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and does the same, That you shalt escape the judgement of God"

    Now as for Verse's 28,29, In these two Verses, Paul's letting them know that a Jew is not a Jew all because they Circumcised themselves by the law.

    Verse 25--"For Circumcision verily profiteth, If you keep the law, But if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision"

    Therefore a Jew is not a Jew just because they Circumcised themselves. But he is a Jew if that Circumcision is of the heart.
    So the subject of Verses 28,29, is about Circumcision.
    Who told you this being about some spiritual Israel. Which is not.
    There is only one Israel to God, and it's sure not some magical Israel, as you been told.
    As for Galatians 4:26--"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"

    Had you back up to the beginning of
    Chapter 4, and pick up what the subject is about, You would haved found that Paul speaking about two Jerusalem's.

    The Jerusalem which is now, is the government seat of Israel.

    Until Christ Jesus comes and the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, to take the place of the old Jerusalem.

    Revelation 21:2--"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband"

    1 Peter 2:5, The living stones are not in reference to the apostles.
    But in reference to those who believe in Christ Jesus.

    As for Isaiah 56:6-7, Again if you had back up to the beginning of the chapter and pick up what the subject is about.
    You would haved found the subject is about the sabbath and in Verse 7 about burnt offerings and Sacrifices.

    you don't really believe in the new Jerusalem people will actually be doing burned offerings and Sacrifices of animals
    For what?
    You can't be Serious
    I think someone fooling around with you.
     
  5. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Let me check.... Nope. I still notice I am wicked.

    So, relax.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You really think so? I remember my grandparents reminiscing about the days when they could leave their doors unlocked. Can't do that, now!

    You might like this (then again, you might not):

    ////////////////////////////////////
    How do secular authorities or historians view 1914? -- PART 1

    Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.

    The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.


    “Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.” (General Charles de Gaulle, Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9)


    “Everyone agrees in recognizing that in the whole history of mankind, few dates have had the importance of August 2, 1914.” (Maurice Genevoix, Promise of Greatness)

    “The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. Before then, men thought that utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since . . . More people have been killed in this century than in all of history.” (Dr. Walker Percy, American Medical News, November 21, 1977)

    “Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.” (British statesman Harold Macmillan, The New York Times, November 23, 1980)


    “The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.” (Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949)


    “In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.” (The Economist)


    The Great War of 1914-18 lies like a band of scorched earth dividing that time from ours. In wiping out so many lives which would have been operative on the years that followed, in destroying beliefs, changing ideas, and leaving incurable wounds of disillusion, it created a physical as well as psychological gulf between two epochs.” (Foreword to The Proud Tower, by Barbara W. Tuchman)


    “Neither the old nor the young had any suspicion that what they were witnessing, during that incomparable season of 1914, was, in fact, the end of an era.” (Before the Lamps Went Out, by Geoffrey Marcus)


    “[There was] little or no evidence of a steady rise or a ‘snowballing’ of conflicts and tensions leading directly to the outbreak of war.” On the contrary, “by late 1913 and early 1914 . . . relations among the major powers appeared to be more settled than they had been for many years.” (International Crisis, by Eugenia Nomikos and Robert C. North, 1976)


    “The effects of World War I were literally revolutionary and struck deep in the lives of almost all peoples, economically as well as socially and politically.” (Meyers Enzyklopädisches Lexikon)


    “The year 1913 marked the close of an era.” (1913 - An End and a Beginning, Virginia Cowles)


    “Before 1914 the monetary and the financial systems were compatible. . . . If one takes August 1914 as marking the dividing line between them, the contrasts between the nineteenth and the twentieth centuries are striking. In many aspects of human affairs there has been a complete reversal of trend. . . . One major reason was the severance of the linkage between the financial system and money with intrinsic value that began in 1914. . . . The breaking of the linkage was a momentous event. . . . 1914 marked a radical, and in the end catastrophic, transformation of that system.” (Ashby Bladen, senior vice president The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America)


    “By all contemporaneous accounts, the world prior to 1914 seemed to be moving irreversibly toward higher levels of civility and civilization; human society seemed perfectible. The nineteenth century had brought an end to the wretched slave trade. Dehumanizing violence seemed on the decline. . . . The pace of global invention had advanced throughout the nineteenth century, bringing railroads, the telephone, the electric light, cinema, the motor car, and household conveniences too numerous to mention. Medical science, improved nutrition, and the mass distribution of potable water had elevated life expectancy . . . The sense of the irreversibility of such progress was universal.....[But] World War I was more devastating to civility and civilization than the physically far more destructive World War II: the earlier conflict destroyed an idea. I cannot erase the thought of those pre-World War I years, when the future of mankind appeared unencumbered and without limit. Today our outlook is starkly different from a century ago but perhaps a bit more consonant with reality. Will terror, global warming, or resurgent populism do to the current era of life-advancing globalization what World War I did to the previous one? No one can be confident of the answer.” (Alan Greenspan, The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World, 2007)


    “Those who have an adult’s recollection and an adult’s understanding of the world which preceded World War I look back upon it with a great nostalgia. There was a sense of security then which has never since existed.”(Professor Benjamin M. Anderson, Economics and the Public Welfare)


    “Historic events are often said to have ‘changed everything.’ In the case of the Great War this is, for once, true. The war really did change everything: not just borders, not just governments and the fate of nations, but the way people have seen the world and themselves ever since. It became a kind of hole in time, leaving the postwar world permanently disconnected from everything that had come before.” (A World Undone, G. J. Meyer, 2006)


    “The outbreak of the war in 1914 is the great turning point of the history of humanity. . . . We entered an age of disaster, horror, and hatred, with insecurity everywhere.” (Peter Munch, Danish historian)


    “Everywhere, the standards of social behavior—already in decline—were devastated...if the politicians and generals had treated the millions under their care like animals dispatched to slaughter, then what canons of religion or ethics could any longer inhibit men from treating each other with the ferocity of jungle beasts? . . . The slaughter of the First World War thoroughly debased the value of human life.” (Norman Cantor, The Outline of History)


    [Following the acceptance of the evolution theory] “a real de-moralization ensued...Man, they decided, is a social animal like the Indian hunting dog . . . , so it seemed right to them that the big dogs of the human pack should bully and subdue.” (H. G. Wells, 1920)

    “The First World War stands as a landmark in modern history...The Victorian idea of an orderly progression toward the best of all possible worlds collapsed in the horror of 10 million dead...Today’s pragmatism and cynicism grew out of the futility and mud of Vimy and Flanders [in northern France and Belgium]. We can relate to the flappers of the twenties or the dispossessed farmers of the thirties with much greater ease than we can [to] the empire builders or moralists of pre-1914. The Great War is a watershed.” (John Wilson, The Globe and Mail, Toronto)


    Without the intense after-effects caused by the total war and military milieu experienced from 1914 to 1918, National Socialism’s ideology and rule would have been inconceivable.” (Professor Walther Hofer, Swiss historian)

    Continued.......
     
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  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @Jumi :

    PART 2:

    “Increasingly, the 75-year period from 1914 to 1989, covering two world wars and the cold war, is being seen by historians as a single, discrete epoch, a time apart in which much of the world was fighting war, recovering from war or preparing for war.” (The New York Times, May 7, 1995)

    “Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.” (Konrad Adenauer, German statesman, The West Parker, Cleveland, Ohio, January 20, 1966)

    “The 1914-18 war that destroyed the 19th century is not over...History doesn’t pay any attention to calendars. The 19th century—defined as a set of beliefs, assumptions, attitudes and morals—did not end on Jan. 1, 1901...it ended in 1914. That’s also when the 20th century, defined the same way, began...Virtually all of the conflicts that we have been concerned with all of our lives stemmed from that [first world] war...Nearly all of the intellectual and cultural currents that we have lived with were born out of that war.”

    “I think it did such damage because it shattered people’s belief that humans can control their destiny. . . . The war disabused people of that belief. No one on either side thought it would turn out the way it did. It destroyed the British and French empires. It killed off the best of a whole generation of British, French and German men. . . . In a short period of time, it killed 11 million people.” (Charley Reece, The Orlando Sentinel)


    “Looking back from the vantage point of the present we see clearly today that the outbreak of World War I ushered in a twentieth-century ‘Time of Troubles’—from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged.” (The Fall of the Dynasties, Edmond Taylor quoting British historian Arnold Toynbee)


    “It is indeed the year 1914 rather than that of Hiroshima which marks the turning point in our time, for by now we can see that . . . it was the first world war that ushered in the era of confused transition in the midst of which we are floundering.” (Dr. René Albrecht-Carrié, Barnard College, The Scientific Monthly, July 1951)


    “War came and the world changed—utterly. There are today just eight states on earth which both existed in 1914 and have not had their form of government changed by violence since then. . . . Of the remaining 170 or so contemporary states, some are too recently created to have known much recent turmoil.” (Foreword of the book Pandaemonium, by U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, 1993, a comment on “the catastrophe of 1914”)


    “The onset of the twentieth century was hailed in many commentaries as the real beginning of the Age of Reason. . . . Contrary to its promise, the twentieth century became mankind’s most bloody and hateful century, a century of hallucinatory politics and of monstrous killings. Cruelty was institutionalized to an unprecedented degree, lethality was organized on a mass production basis. The contrast between the scientific potential for good and the political evil that was actually unleashed is shocking. Never before in history was killing so globally pervasive, never before did it consume so many lives, never before was human annihilation pursued with such concentration of sustained effort on behalf of such arrogantly irrational goals.” (Out wof Control—Global Turmoil on the Eve of the Twenty-First Century, 1993, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former head of the U.S. National Security Council)


    “The four years that followed [1914]...were four years of the most intense and heroic effort the human race has ever made. When the effort was over, illusions and enthusiasms possible up to 1914 slowly sank beneath a sea of massive disillusionment. For the price it had paid, humanity’s major gain was a painful view of its own limitations.” (Graham Wallas, co-founder London School of Economics)

    “It may be that, after the seeming inevitability of two world wars, the creation of nuclear weapons was an admonitory gift, which spared us a third clash of great nations and introduced the longest period of general peace, albeit a peace of terror, since Victorian times. . . . What had gone wrong with humanity? Why had the promise of the nineteenth century been dashed? Why had the twentieth century turned into an age of horror or, as some would say, evil?” (A History of the Modern World—From 1917 to the 1980s, Paul Johnson)


    “Of all the convulsive transformations of the European system, the Great War and the peace settlement brought about the sharpest break with the past, economically and socially no less than politically. . . . The mellow glory of that freely operating and productive system had vanished in the catastrophe of war. Instead, Europe had to cope with economic exhaustion and universal economic dislocation. . . . The damage was so great that the European economy did not recover from stagnation and instability before the next world war struck.” (The World in the Crucible 1914-1919, by Bernadotte E. Schmitt and Harold C. Vedeler)


    “In the Second World War every bond between man and man was to perish. Crimes were committed by the Germans under the Hitlerite domination to which they allowed themselves to be subjected which find no equal in scale and wickedness with any that have darkened the human record. The wholesale massacre by systematised processes of six or seven millions of men, women, and children in the German execution camps exceeds in horror the rough-and-ready butcheries of Genghis Khan, and in scale reduces them to pigmy proportions. Deliberate extermination of whole populations was contemplated and pursued by both Germany and Russia in the Eastern war. . . . We have at length emerged from a scene of material ruin and moral havoc the like of which had never darkened the imagination of former centuries.” (The Gathering Storm, Volume I of The Second World War, Winston S. Churchill)

    “Like a ghost that lingered past the appointed hour, the nineteenth century—with its essential orderliness, its self-confidence, and its faith in human progress—had tarried until August 1914, when the major European powers suffered a collective attack of muddleheadedness that led directly to the senseless slaughter of millions of the best young men of a generation. Four and a half years later, as the world tried to pick up the pieces after the wrenching cataclysm of the Great War, it became apparent to many (but by no means all) contemporary observers that the last remaining vestiges of the old order had been swept away, and that mankind had entered a new age that was considerably less rational and less forgiving of human imperfections. Those who had expected peace to usher in a better world found their hopes betrayed in 1919.” (1919—The Year Our World Began, William K. Klingaman)

    • Before that time, monarchs such as Czar Nicholas of Russia, Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany, and Emperor Franz Josef of Austria-Hungary wielded great power. Each of these men could mobilize over four million fighting men and send them off to battle. But their forefathers had signed what was called the Holy Alliance, proclaiming that God had delegated them to govern different parts of one great “Christian nation.” According to The Encyclopædia Britannica, this document “powerfully affected the course of European diplomacy during the 19th century.” It was used to oppose democratic movements and to favor the so-called divine right of kings.
    • The Spanish flu epidemic of 1918 reaped another 21,000,000 lives around the earth.
    The 1920’s “witnessed a hedonism and narcissism of remarkable proportions...The war...assaulted moral standards. Men on both sides had been taught by religious, military, and political leaders to view mass killing as morally good...merely the crudest of assaults on a moral order that claimed to be rooted in a Judaeo-Christian ethic...On the Western Front brothels were soon regular appurtenances of base camps . . . On the home front morality loosened its corsets and belts too. Prostitution increased strikingly.”(Rites of Spring, Professor Modris Eksteins)

    //////////////////////

    Why don't many people recognize these differences? Because it's been the norm for us.....it's all we've known!
     
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You can find all sorts of people that yell "Get off my lawn!!" But when one looks at actual statistics one will find that people are if anything more moral now than at any time in the past.
     
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  9. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I said "other." It's the only reasonable response to a meaningless question...
     
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  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If I may say, your grandparents are right, I can relate with what your grandparents said.
    As when I was a little kid, my parents never lock the house doors and where we lived was only about 2 miles away from the prison, and many times prisoners would walk away, but never had any fear about it,
    Not like it is today, it's not prisoners people have to worry about to day,
    but illegal immigrants people worry about to day.killing American people.
     
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  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Statistics show that those fears are not realistic and are probably due to racist fears.
     
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  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    To answer the Thread ( Do you recognize we're in a time of wickedness)

    According to the book of Revelation we're in that time.
    In Revelation there are
    7 Seals
    7 Trumpets
    7 vials
    Right now we're in the 4th seal, 4th trumpet, 4th vial of Revelation

    Unto which according to the book of Revelation, Christ Jesus returns at the
    7th seal, 7th Trump, 7 vial.

    So seeing the world is standing right now in the
    4th seal, 4th Trump, 4th vial. of Revelation

    That means the world only has the
    5th seal
    5th Trump
    5th vial
    6th seal
    6th Trump
    6th vial
    7th seal
    7th Trump -- Christ Jesus returns
    7th vial
    To go before Christ Jesus returns
    As it is time is running out for the world.
     
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  13. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    And much of that security and quiet came back. Adenauer was speaking in the time of the cold war.

    Yes it was much more terrible than we can imagine today, since we live more peaceful times now.

    The empires were such that needed to fall. They were built on looting and destruction of the population, culture, language and heritage of a whole continent.

    Written not today, Toynbee has been dead since the 70s.

    [​IMG]



    An era that ended with Perestroika and collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Indeed there is a reason why they were called World Wars. Though there were wars where so many people died that it was globally significant, but more local.

    It isn't useful to work with old quotes when one can also find other types of quotes and what's better, even modern ones.

    Is this to show that the past was also bad, in contrast to the other picked quotes?

    Heard of the black plague?

    It is indeed great that modern times are better.

    Norm to us? That is the past talking about it's past. Not the norm today. We are in a different era where human rights, ethics and ecology have become more important to people.
     
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  14. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Things are no worse than they have ever been.
     
  15. ajay0

    ajay0 Well-Known Member

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    This is what Hinduism say . This is the Kali Yuga, or the Materialistic ages, where falsehood will appear as truth and vice versa. And consequently vice will appear as truth and vice versa as well.

    The issue is that the individual and tribal ego, which masks itself as nationalism or ideology , will be out of proportion in this time, resulting in distorted perception of reality and consequent errant decisionmaking.
     
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  16. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Um, but we do explain to children, who don't yet understand math, how and why 2+2=4. How else will they learn it?
    Did you want to try a better analogy? Or better yet, you could just explain yourself for once, instead of just claiming that everybody else is too ignorant to understand any explanation you could provide.
     
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