Do you DARE QUESTION GOD????

[CG Didymus]

Cherry picking is what someone of any religion picks out a few verses or quotations and says they are representative of what that religion teaches about x, y, or z.

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If I see my religion misrepresented by a cherry picker, I will say something.

Wow, now only do I cherry pick... but the quotes I posted misrepresent the Baha'i Faith? I hate to ask... but what does the Baha'i Faith say will happen before the Lessor Peace is established?

 

[Bird123]

Sorry, but I guess I have to retract my statement about doom and gloom. Everything the Baha'is say about the future is all rosy... like...

Know, verily, that an unforeseen calamity followeth you, and grievous retribution awaiteth you. (Baha’u’llah, The Persian Hidden Words 63)

According to the teaching of the Prophets, disease and all other forms of calamity are due to disobedience to the Divine Commands. Even disasters due to floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes are attributed by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá indirectly to this cause. (Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 95)

Bewildered, agonized and helpless, [humanity] watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations... wasting its cities...(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day Is Come, p. 3)

The world with the various calamities that have befallen it, will be completely ravaged and its civilization demolished... (From a letter dated 24 November 1931 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the American National Spiritual Assembly)​

How I ever interpreted any of that to be doom and gloom? Actually, why would a Baha'i deny this? This is their own writings. It also said, "if the Bahá’ís do not come to its help and embue it with the spirit that Bahá’u’lláh has brought to the world." So Baha'is can prevent the doom and gloom? Interesting.

So what you are saying is that it might appear to be doom and gloom, but it's really rosy because Baha is going to save me from it all?

I don't understand why everyone wants to save me. Look how much wisdom and knowledge I'll acquire learning to overcome all these troubles. Ah yes, I can see it now. I'll have it made. I think you are right. Things are looking Rosy!!!

 

[truthseeker7]

The Bible recycled older religions as well

The sun doesnt orbit around Saturn. Gravitational pull in the universe is basically a heirarchy of mass. And even a planet as large as Jupiter (its actually pretty small compared to others) is beneath the mass of star it orbits.

Astrology, not cosmology, is found in religion.

of course they recycled old religion

saturn orbits the sun

 

[rational experiences]

I DO NOT KNOW how to contact your Computer AI causing you to hear such things, bringing confusion to your mind. If you really heard my male thoughts and secret thoughts, why was not your answer the contact information?

Science encoded the program.

The God O Earth system never owned a mind contact/mind coercion program, only a few individuals in a bio life owned that ability. Science studied it and encoded it and transmitted it. So changed AI. The same as the use computers changed AI, as AI was not ever used, it was just a cause.....actually.

 

[rational experiences]

cosmology is everywhere in religion, just look hard enough

A human male who thinks lives on his own planet, Earth that he preached was his God creator entity, stone created the heavenly body/spirits that he lives with, is supported by and uses.

And you can look into out of space the cosmology and talk about it...the same today as you did before and tell stories. Do you own your thoughts? Yes would claim the egotist. Does your thinking as a human give names to everything natural in that cosmos that is not named in actuality? Yes. So does your thoughts, owner then claim ownership? In reality yes you do.

The Sun in the cosmos is not any law to Earth, it burst and attacked Earth, gave it sink holes, burnt it cold clear gases...a one of event.

O God the Earth is stone, its own body. God the O Earth owns its own heavenly gases burning as a gas....gas owns the light as it is a gas burning.

What has that got to do with any so called cosmological law or theme....an egotist telling stories in a cult group coercive reasoning, claiming you all have to believe what I say or else history. For it is that group who took control by science, being occult history.....science and its brothers is the history of control.

It was never religion.

Second time today that a bird had flown and crashed into my house window...I wonder why? Science you aren't studying us are you.......and my dog when that occurs has already scrambled and hidden under our bed.

 

[Trailblazer]

I hate to ask... but what does the Baha'i Faith say will happen before the Lessor Peace is established?

Conjectures abound, but what will happen was not specified, because it was not prudent to reveal it.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[CG Didymus]

Conjectures abound, but what will happen was not specified, because it was not prudent to reveal it.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

And that's all you found? I quoted that and many more, but when I do it, it is cherry picking and misrepresenting the Baha'i Faith?

The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody. (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 118)

And this one is pretty long to be a cherry pick. It's at least an apple or peach pick.

Any intelligent person can understand from the experiences of the last world war, and keeping abreast of what modern science has developed in the way of weapons for any future war, that big cities all over the world are going to be in tremendous danger. This is what the Guardian has said to the pilgrims. Entirely aside from this, he has urged the Bahá’ís, for the sake of serving the Faith, to go out from these centers of intense materialism, where life nowadays is so hurried and grinding and, dispersing to towns and villages, carry the Message far and wide throughout the cities of the American Union. He strongly believes that the field outside the big Cities is more fertile, that the Bahá’ís in the end will be happier for having made this move, and that, in case of an outbreak of war, it stands to reason they will be safer, just the way any other person living in the country, or away from the big industrial areas, is safer. It is remarks such as these that the pilgrims have carried back in their notes. He sees no cause for alarm, but he certainly believes that the Bahá’ís should weigh these thoughts, and take action for the sake of spreading the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, and for their own ultimate happiness as well. Indeed the two things go together. (Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, 20 June 1954)

Here's from the Baha'i International Teaching Center about pilgrim's notes and the calamity. They don't want Baha'is to worry about it, though. Here's a fresh bowl of cherries for you.

The violent derangement of the world's equilibrium; the trembling that will seize the limbs of mankind... the development of infernal engines of war; the burning of cities; the contamination of the atmosphere of the earth — these stand out as the signs and portents that must either herald or accompany the retributive calamity which, as decreed by Him Who is the Judge and Redeemer of mankind, must, sooner or later, afflict a society which, for the most part, and for over a century, has turned a deaf ear to the Voice of God's Messenger in this day — a calamity which must purge the human race of the dross of its age-long corruptions...
Bahá'ís should waste time dwelling on the dark side of things... (but) big cities all over the world are going to be in tremendous danger.
He sees no cause for alarm... (but) the Guardian envisaged the likelihood of further warfare in the world, he did not categorically identify such war with the "unforeseen calamity" foretold by Bahá'u'lláh... We have no indication of exactly what nature the apocalyptic upheaval will be: it might be another war...
(A)lthough there is every reason to expect that the world will experience travails and testing as never before, we do not know what form these upheavals will take, when exactly they will come, how severe they will be, nor how long they will last.
The world with the various calamities that have befallen it, will be completely ravaged and its civilization demolished, if the Bahá'ís do not come to its help
There is nothing in the teachings to tell us exactly how much longer the present turbulent state of the world is going to endure; but we do know that humanity must suffer until it becomes spiritually awakened...
Abdu'l- Baha anticipated that the Lesser Peace could be established before the end of the twentieth century.
​

This is from Lights of Guidance by Helen Hornby Calamities and Crisis. There's more than thirty quotes listed. And you could only give me one? That's why I don't need you. I find things and you call it cherry picking and misrepresenting the Baha'i Faith. What will you say now? I hope nothing.

Internal Disintegration and External Chaos Being Accelerated
"… Pregnant indeed are the years looming ahead of us all. The twin processes of internal disintegration and external chaos are being accelerated and every day are inexorably moving towards a climax. The rumblings that must precede the eruption of those forces that must cause 'the limbs of humanity to quake' can already be heard. 'The time of the end', 'the latter years', as foretold in the Scriptures, are at long last upon us. The Pen of Bahá’u’lláh, the voice of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, have time and again, insistently and in terms unmistakable, warned an unheeding humanity of impending disaster. The Community of the Most Great Name, the leaven that must leaven the lump, the chosen remnant that must survive the rolling up of the old, discredited, tottering order, and assist in the unfoldment of a new one in its stead, is standing ready, alert, clear-visioned, and resolute…"
(From a letter of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, July 5, 1938: Messages to America, 1932-1946, pp. 13-14)​

Later in it says, "Abdu’l-Bahá anticipated that the Lesser Peace could be established before the end of the twentieth century." (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, April 15, 1976) All interesting stuff.

 

[CG Didymus]

So what you are saying is that it might appear to be doom and gloom, but it's really rosy because Baha is going to save me from it all?

I don't understand why everyone wants to save me. Look how much wisdom and knowledge I'll acquire learning to overcome all these troubles. Ah yes, I can see it now. I'll have it made. I think you are right. Things are looking Rosy!!!

What got me off into this tangent was how some religions use "fear tactics" to scare the followers. So I did a little search and found some scary stuff from the Baha'i Faith. Other Baha'is I'm sure would have acted much differently. The one here is much too defensive for me to deal with. I don't see why any other Baha'i would have a problem with the doom and gloom quotes, because there is a bright side... the old world is crumbling away and a new world is taking shape. The New World Order of Baha'u'llah is going to be our salvation. So yes, to quote Steve Miller... "we got to go through hell to get to heaven."

The question I keep asking Baha'is is that in the Book of Revelation, all the tribulations happen and keep getting worse (of course because we deserve it) and then just when we can't take any more... Jesus comes back. But, that's not how it went with Baha'u'llah, he came when things weren't great, died, and things got worse? What's that all about?

Anyway, the world is looking pretty bad off right now and getting worse. So maybe it Jesus going to come and save us? Or, the Baha'i Faith will show us the way to peace and unity. Either way is looking rosy.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that's all you found? I quoted that and many more, but when I do it, it is cherry picking and misrepresenting the Baha'i Faith?

You asked: "I hate to ask... but what does the Baha'i Faith say will happen before the Lessor Peace is established?"

I was not trying to represent the Baha'i Faith, I was simply answering with one passage I consider authoritative. You did not ask for all the passages in the Baha'i Writings related to what will happen before the Lessor Peace is established.

Here's from the Baha'i International Teaching Center about pilgrim's notes and the calamity. They don't want Baha'is to worry about it, though. Here's a fresh bowl of cherries for you.

Thanks for doing all that research...
I never worry about what is going to happen in the future as it relates to the world situation, so no worries.

I do not want to know what is going to happen in the future, the only way I survive is by living in the present.
I live fully in the present, day to day, sometimes hour to hour, minute to minute. The Baha'i Faith is the least of my worries.

 

[CG Didymus]

You asked: "I hate to ask... but what does the Baha'i Faith say will happen before the Lessor Peace is established?"

I was not trying to represent the Baha'i Faith, I was simply answering with one passage I consider authoritative. You did not ask for all the passages in the Baha'i Writings related to what will happen before the Lessor Peace is established.

Thanks for doing all that research...
I never worry about what is going to happen in the future as it relates to the world situation, so no worries.

I do not want to know what is going to happen in the future, the only way I survive is by living in the present.
I live fully in the present, day to day, sometimes hour to hour, minute to minute. The Baha'i Faith is the least of my worries.

I asked because you accused me of cherry picking and misrepresenting the Baha'i Faith. Because you didn't like what I said and quoted, I gave you the opportunity to show me what the Baha'i Faith believes will happen before the lesser peace gets established. And the quote you use is one that I had quoted? Strange, I wonder how is it cherry picking and misrepresenting the Faith when I quote it? Unfortunately, that's why I'd rather not have you post responses to me. To paraphrase a quote from Rodney Dangerfield... You're a water sign and I'm an earth sign and together we make mud.

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked because you accused me of cherry picking and misrepresenting the Baha'i Faith. Because you didn't like what I said and quoted, I gave you the opportunity to show me what the Baha'i Faith believes will happen before the lesser peace gets established. And the quote you use is one that I had quoted? Strange, I wonder how is it cherry picking and misrepresenting the Faith when I quote it? Unfortunately, that's why I'd rather not have you post responses to me. To paraphrase a quote from Rodney Dangerfield... You're a water sign and I'm an earth sign and together we make mud.

Sorry I said that about the cherry picking....
I have been battling some personal things and that just hit me at the wrong time.

 

[Muffled]

The status quo rewards those that go along, and punish those that doubt and question. Wisdom does not come easily.

I believe people have big egos and like hierarchies as a result. Maybe that is why Peter didn't become head of the church because he knew better. I believe a person of faith disagreeing with me is not a reason to judge him. I can reason with the person but if the person isn't getting it I have to leave it up to God to teach the person.

 

[Muffled]

You are right. EGO gets in the way of so much learning. I have seen blind beliefs in many religions. For those living in a box of beliefs, it has never been about Truth. If it was, they could never be satisfied with mere beliefs.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I believe in learning but if one has the truth of salvation the rest is just window dressing.

 

[Muffled]

God does exist. God is not a Belief. I have direct experience to this.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God.
Science is mankind's attempt to understand God's creations.
Science will find God before religion ever will.
Individuals with a wide view and open mind are capable of finding God before all.


You worry so much about those ants, yet those ants are no more than ants. This path you have chosen will not lead you where you want to be. Why choose it?

Kiddies often play havoc with the classroom. Worry not! Let it go! The classroom will not be allowed to be destroyed. Why not? It has never ever been about Destroying. It's about Creating. The choice is with your hands. The choice is within your reach. You need only focus, concentrate, step forward, and grab it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I believe I can welcome you to the club.

I believe history reveals otherwise. All science has come up with so far is a god particle and I doubt anyone is attributing that to the essence of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry I said that about the cherry picking....
I have been battling some personal things and that just hit me at the wrong time.

Okay, I guess it's better me than your husband or your cats. But obviously we do make mud together. It doesn't take much to get us going. And, I don't think either of us likes to lose. Not a good combination. And usually we both get pissed off, and we both kind of both lose. Take care.

 

[Bird123]

What got me off into this tangent was how some religions use "fear tactics" to scare the followers. So I did a little search and found some scary stuff from the Baha'i Faith. Other Baha'is I'm sure would have acted much differently. The one here is much too defensive for me to deal with. I don't see why any other Baha'i would have a problem with the doom and gloom quotes, because there is a bright side... the old world is crumbling away and a new world is taking shape. The New World Order of Baha'u'llah is going to be our salvation. So yes, to quote Steve Miller... "we got to go through hell to get to heaven."

The question I keep asking Baha'is is that in the Book of Revelation, all the tribulations happen and keep getting worse (of course because we deserve it) and then just when we can't take any more... Jesus comes back. But, that's not how it went with Baha'u'llah, he came when things weren't great, died, and things got worse? What's that all about?

Anyway, the world is looking pretty bad off right now and getting worse. So maybe it Jesus going to come and save us? Or, the Baha'i Faith will show us the way to peace and unity. Either way is looking rosy.

Actually, the world is getting better Communications through the internet bring people from all countries to interact. People are living longer. The population still increases in spite of even the pandemic. Education of the world population continues to grow and will advance faster in the future as communication capabilities increase. Yes, I see lots of good.

Has the level of adversity increased? I would say no. People often judge how bad the world is by the amount of trouble out there. One must remember that it is this trouble that leads our knowledge to the future. Once one learns what it takes to solve a problem, that problem no longer remains a problem. It's time for the next lesson.

Funny how news reporting rarely reports good news. Should not we choose to value goodness more? So often people grab and hang onto trouble and problems for dear life, griping and complaining while taking very little effort toward resolution.

From our caveman days, mankind walks slowly forward. The future is becoming brighter every day. Could we even be where we are today without the challenges and adversity that leads us all forward? I think not. 1000 years from now people will look back and say: How did they live like that back then?
On the other hand, how could the future have the life they have without us? Yes, lessons are being learned.


That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I believe in learning but if one has the truth of salvation the rest is just window dressing.

At one point in time science stated the smallest part of an element was the atom. That truth turned out to be a belief upon the Discovery of smaller parts within the atom.

Truth must always be Questioned and never blindly accepted. If one does not continue to question, truth is really not what one values.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I believe I can welcome you to the club.

I believe history reveals otherwise. All science has come up with so far is a god particle and I doubt anyone is attributing that to the essence of God.

Science, by studying the creations and systems of God, is studying God regardless of any beliefs. It's just a matter of time when they bump into God. The view will change. On the other hand, arrival time for this is not anytime soon. Still, one can get there even taking baby steps.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, I guess it's better me than your husband or your cats. But obviously we do make mud together. It doesn't take much to get us going. And, I don't think either of us likes to lose. Not a good combination. And usually we both get pissed off, and we both kind of both lose. Take care.

Even though we have both been Baha'is for many decades and we both love the cats, sometimes my husband and I do not get along very well, but it is nobody's fault; it is just the combination of temperaments that clash at times, but we always work it out.

I am not looking to win anything. I am only seeking to learn and form amiable relationships with people, since forums are my only social outlet. I gave up debating about who is right and who is wrong years ago. I will answer Christians who post to me but I am not trying to win a debate. I am just presenting what I believe. They can take it or leave it.

I understand how you feel and if I cannot post to someone without maintaining peace and harmony, or if we totally disagree and will never come to any kind of agreement, I have learned to stop posting to them.

See you around.

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually, the world is getting better Communications through the internet bring people from all countries to interact. People are living longer. The population still increases in spite of even the pandemic. Education of the world population continues to grow and will advance faster in the future as communication capabilities increase. Yes, I see lots of good.

Has the level of adversity increased? I would say no. People often judge how bad the world is by the amount of trouble out there. One must remember that it is this trouble that leads our knowledge to the future. Once one learns what it takes to solve a problem, that problem no longer remains a problem. It's time for the next lesson.

Funny how news reporting rarely reports good news. Should not we choose to value goodness more? So often people grab and hang onto trouble and problems for dear life, griping and complaining while taking very little effort toward resolution.

From our caveman days, mankind walks slowly forward. The future is becoming brighter every day. Could we even be where we are today without the challenges and adversity that leads us all forward? I think not. 1000 years from now people will look back and say: How did they live like that back then?
On the other hand, how could the future have the life they have without us? Yes, lessons are being learned.


That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I actually don't have a problem with some of the doom and gloom talk. Some people and some leaders, including religious ones totally suck. Materialism, consumerism, built-in obsolescence keeps a lot of us buying more and better and bigger things. Can the world continue like this? So I can see how, a God or some "divine" thing out there, who not be happy with people's greed for material wealth. But, has allowed it to teach a lesson. However, even if people were perfect, I don't imagine natural disasters wouldn't keep happening and killing people. What is a God that says he loves his creation thinking? You're too far ahead of me in your spiritual path. Spiritually, I might not be a caveman, but maybe back in the old west and shootin things out with the bad guys, but still drinking and gambling and foolin around with the salon ladies myself.