Do You Bow Your Head?

[outlawState]

Thanks for sharing. I believe every "belief system" has somewhere "Love" as the main key to reach God. So all are potential ways to reach the goal "whatever that may be". So I will never belittle the faith of others. I visited a church, afterwards they asked me about my "background" religiously speaking. I answered that I follow a guru in india, like they follow their guru Jesus. They went full judgmental and demeaning in seconds.

It's not a good idea to go into a "foreign" (to your way of thinking) religious establishment, and then to start "preaching" to them that they are of the wrong faith. You don't evangelize your own faith in the house of another faith.

What were you doing in that church anyway if you had no interest in Christianity? Jesus is not just a "guru." It's an axiomatic principle of Christianity. You told them that their faith is false. Paul the apostle said if Jesus was just a man and not raised from the dead their faith is in vain. So I could not imagine a ruder response to a polite inquiry i.e. to tell them that they followed a "guru."

1Co 15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

At that point I found it very healthy and good, giving their remarks to tell them "the truth" in their "house". You judge/demean my faith, so you are not a Christian IMO.

But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

But I also decided from this experiment to strongly avoid judgmental and demeaning Christians believing "Jesus is the ONLY way for all".

I think may be that you discovered that not all Christians are wet "cultural" Christians that you may have naively imagined.

 

[Polymath257]

It's not a good idea to go into a "foreign" (to your way of thinking) religious establishment, and then to start "preaching" to them that they are of the wrong faith. You don't evangelize your own faith in the house of another faith.

What were you doing in that church anyway if you had no interest in Christianity? Jesus is not just a "guru." It's an axiomatic principle of Christianity. You told them that their faith is false. Paul the apostle said if Jesus was just a man and not raised from the dead their faith is in vain. So I could not imagine a ruder response to a polite inquiry.

Ceremonies like weddings and funerals are often held in churches. After being *asked* what their religious background was and informed it wasn't the same as those in the church, the church members went off on the religious views of a visitor.

1Co 15:14

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.


But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

If I am in a church for a wedding or funeral and someone asks me what my religious viewpoint is, I will answer that I am an atheist. If that is 'demeaning', then they should not have asked.

I think may be that you discovered that not all Christians are wet "cultural" Christians that you may have naively imagined.

I'm sure they have their strongly held beliefs. I also have beliefs which I will usually not mention in the religious establishment of another. But, if they *ask* me, I will say what my position is. I'll try to be polite, of course, but I also won't deny my disbelief.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Jesus is not just a "guru."

While I appreciate your perspective, there are those in Hinduism and other beliefs that consider him just that.

 

[outlawState]

Ceremonies like weddings and funerals are often held in churches. After being *asked* what their religious background was and informed it wasn't the same as those in the church, the church members went off on the religious views of a visitor.

It is very unusual, for "church members" to be present at a private wedding unless they are invited guests. I am not sure that you have your facts right. Church weddings do not take place on Sundays but on Saturdays. Everyone knows that.

I'm sure they have their strongly held beliefs. I also have beliefs which I will usually not mention in the religious establishment of another. But, if they *ask* me, I will say what my position is. I'll try to be polite, of course, but I also won't deny my disbelief.

I was deferring to his statement "just like you follow your guru Jesus." It is clear that he did not merely restrict himself to stating his own position as an unbeliever, but sought to instruct them as to what they themselves believed.

 

[outlawState]

While I appreciate your perspective, there are those in Hinduism and other beliefs that consider him just that.

Even if it so, it is not for such to assert the same to the face of a christian in his own church.

 

[stvdv]

14 jun 2018 stvdv 011 28

It's not a good idea to go into a "foreign" (to your way of thinking) religious establishment, and then to start "preaching" to them that they are of the wrong faith. You don't evangelize your own faith in the house of another faith.

What were you doing in that church anyway if you had no interest in Christianity? Jesus is not just a "guru." It's an axiomatic principle of Christianity. You told them that their faith is false. Paul the apostle said if Jesus was just a man and not raised from the dead their faith is in vain. So I could not imagine a ruder response to a polite inquiry i.e. to tell them that they followed a "guru."

But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

I think may be that you discovered that not all Christians are wet "cultural" Christians that you may have naively imagined.

You twist what I said.
1) I NEVER proselytize. You seem not to know what that means.
2) We talked about God. I did not say anything about my belief. They started asking me.
3) I shared very little that I have an eastern view. Then they started straight away judging/demeaning my faith, of which they knew nothing
4) I just told them they have no right. They didn't take no for an answer and continue to abuse me.
5) Only then I made the bold statement "I follow my guru, like you follow your guru Jesus. I do not judge, you judge"

Your twist is this.
If a Christian is free to share that he believes in Jesus
I am also free to share that I have a guru
[But I didn't, I only shared when they asked. I even was in the habit to say "sure you want to know?"]

So your reply was totally wrong and inappropriate

Why i was in the church was another dumm remark you made. Full of judgment without even asking me why. Immediately judging.

But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

Obviously you are the blind one here. And accuse me of what you are doing in your reply.

 

[Polymath257]

Even if it so, it is not for such to assert the same to the face of a christian in his own church.

Even when specifically asked?

 

[Augustus]

Do you feel it is disrespectful for someone of a different faith or no faith at all to not remove their hat or bow their head during a prayer or invocation?

Not really a problem for me. Out of courtesy, their house their rules.

If it goes on for more than a few seconds I might start having a quick peek around the room though.

 

[outlawState]

You twist what I said.
1) I NEVER proselytize. You seem not to know what that means.
2) We talked about God. I did not say anything about my belief. They started asking me.
3) I shared very little that I have an eastern view. Then they started straight away judging/demeaning my faith, of which they knew nothing
4) I just told them they have no right. They didn't take no for an answer and continue to abuse me.
5) Only then I made the bold statement "I follow my guru, like you follow your guru Jesus. I do not judge, you judge"

May be you should give the full facts. I don't even know what denomination you're talking about. Even I don't acknowledge all churches to be Christian, and it also matters what service you attended. Did you attend a eucharist?

Your twist is this.
If a Christian is free to share that he believes in Jesus
I am also free to share that I have a guru
[But I didn't, I only shared when they asked. I even was in the habit to say "sure you want to know?"]

So your reply was totally wrong and inappropriate

It was entirely appropriate on the basis of your limited information.

Why i was in the church was another dumm remark you made. Full of judgment without even asking me why. Immediately judging.

I think its a valid point. Churches are not public property. They have a right to exclude anyone.

But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

Obviously you are the blind one here. And accuse me of what you are doing in your reply.

On the contrary, you are bringing up further information and then using it to condemn me. I am not even sure what was said now. In any event I stand exactly by what I said. Referring to Jesus as a "guru" is denying that he was the son of God, which is at least rude, and calculated to get yourself thrown out of any church.

What were you doing in a church, if you deny Jesus as the son of God? Churches are for believers and genuine inquirers, not those who proclaim a contrary "faith."

 

[stvdv]

14 jun 2018 stvdv 011 29

I'm sure they have their strongly held beliefs. I also have beliefs which I will usually not mention in the religious establishment of another. But, if they *ask* me, I will say what my position is. I'll try to be polite, of course, but I also won't deny my disbelief.

Thank you very much, I appreciate that.

I was deferring to his statement "just like you follow your guru Jesus." It is clear that he did not merely restrict himself to stating his own position as an unbeliever, but sought to instruct them as to what they themselves believed.

1) Who told you I am an unbeliever. Another of your assumptions I assume.
2) I did restrict myself to telling about my believe. Then they asked more, so I innocently thought they were interested to know. So explained "Guru"
3) I did NOT sought to instruct them as to what they themselves believed
4) I even told them. I belief that all humans are children of God. So I never proselytize. That would be the opposite of my belief.

You do surprise me, that you can put in 1 line so much untruth out of wrong interpretation without checking facts first. You are a winner in that regard

 

[Curious George]

In any event I stand exactly by what I said. Referring to Jesus as a "guru" is denying that he was the son of God, which is at least rude, and calculated to get yourself thrown out of any church.

Taking exception to calling Jesus a guru would imply Jesus was neither a teacher, wise, or had any greater spiritual understanding.

Is that what you mean?

 

[stvdv]

14 jun 2018 stvdv 011 30

While I appreciate your perspective, there are those in Hinduism and other beliefs that consider him just that.

Thank you. That is true.

Even if it so, it is not for such to assert the same to the face of a christian in his own church.

I do recall that some Christians spit out their religion in my face. And even worse "they told me I would go to Hell on hearing I believe different"

And when Christian asks me about my belief I should go mute, or just smile. Come on, grow up and don't be such a hypocrite here.

 

[Polymath257]

What were you doing in a church, if you deny Jesus as the son of God? Churches are for believers and genuine inquirers, not those who proclaim a contrary "faith."

Some churches are more inclusive than others. Some will allow (or even encourage) 'non-believers' to attend ceremonies.

 

[stvdv]

14 jun 2018 stvdv 011 31

Thanks for sharing. I believe every "belief system" has somewhere "Love" as the main key to reach God. So all are potential ways to reach the goal "whatever that may be". So I will never belittle the faith of others. I visited a church, afterwards they asked me about my "background" religiously speaking. I answered that I follow a guru in india, like they follow their guru Jesus. They went full judgmental and demeaning in seconds.

At that point I found it very healthy and good, giving their remarks to tell them "the truth" in their "house". You judge/demean my faith, so you are not a Christian IMO. But I also decided from this experiment to strongly avoid judgmental and demeaning Christians believing "Jesus is the ONLY way for all".

It's not a good idea to go into a "foreign" (to your way of thinking) religious establishment, and then to start "preaching" to them that they are of the wrong faith. You don't evangelize your own faith in the house of another faith.

What were you doing in that church anyway if you had no interest in Christianity? Jesus is not just a "guru." It's an axiomatic principle of Christianity. You told them that their faith is false. Paul the apostle said if Jesus was just a man and not raised from the dead their faith is in vain. So I could not imagine a ruder response to a polite inquiry i.e. to tell them that they followed a "guru."

But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

I think may be that you discovered that not all Christians are wet "cultural" Christians that you may have naively imagined

So your reply was totally wrong and inappropriate

Why i was in the church was another dumm remark you made. Full of judgment without even asking me why. Immediately judging.

But did you not demean their faith first? Are you not judging specs when the plank was in your eye?

Obviously you are the blind one here. And accuse me of what you are doing in your reply.

May be you should give the full facts. I don't even know what denomination you're talking about. Even I don't acknowledge all churches to be Christian, and it also matters what service you attended. Did you attend a eucharist?

Come on, you blame it on me that "you are being judgmental without having all facts". That's lame and childish. Just learn not to judge is the key to avoid this.
I did give plenty of facts that proved that the Christians judging/demeaning my faith was "so not done"
Denomination, Churches, services, eucharist all these are so totally not important.
I just stated that their behavior was plain unacceptable and immoral.

It was entirely appropriate on the basis of your limited information.

So I quoted all the relevant quotes. Mine in green and yours in red. So you can have a quick overview and see that your reply is full of judgment like the christians did to me. Maybe you are a Christians and this is what Christians do. I do not know. But I do know that I do not accept this and tell them they are wrong in "judging and demeaning the religion or belief system or feelings of others". Period.

I think its a valid point. Churches are not public property. They have a right to exclude anyone.

Here you write it in a decent way "I think .....". When you talk to me like that, I am a very nice guy and spare you a lot of confrontation.
I do have to say that you do not have a valid point here.
You should just have asked me "how came you happened to be in that church". I could have explained in 1 min.
Still you don't ask me, and again state something what is only in your mind.

And again I say "Ask me and I explain to you why I was in that church, and you will feel very embarrassed to know my intention to be there"

 

[Polymath257]

It is very unusual, for "church members" to be present at a private wedding unless they are invited guests. I am not sure that you have your facts right. Church weddings do not take place on Sundays but on Saturdays. Everyone knows that.

I suspect that is strongly dependent on the sect and the couple involved.

I was deferring to his statement "just like you follow your guru Jesus." It is clear that he did not merely restrict himself to stating his own position as an unbeliever, but sought to instruct them as to what they themselves believed.

He was giving his answer to a question *they* asked about his beliefs. After he gave his initial answer, they pressed him on his beliefs and he answered them again. If they can't handle his *opinion* that Jesus is a guru, then they should not have pressed the issue.

 

[stvdv]

14 jun 2018 stvdv 011 32

He was giving his answer to a question *they* asked about his beliefs. After he gave his initial answer, they pressed him on his beliefs and he answered them again. If they can't handle his *opinion* that Jesus is a guru, then they should not have pressed the issue.

This is a very interesting point you make here.

Christians evangelize thereby impose a lot of their opinions Jesus upon us [Jesus is God, trinity, Jesus is Son of God]. And we have to swallow this. And I meet Christians everywhere doing their evangelizing stuff. What this OP was partly about even.

But the moment a non-Christian tells his belief then the Christians "feels" he has the right to be demeaning by telling the other his religion is inferior/wrong/bad etc. [And then even blame me, for answering their question, that it is inappropriate to share my belief in a Church]. Craziness.

And in these years I only shared my belief after they insisted like minimum 3 times. Because I "hated" these stupid confrontations. Now I am a little less shy.

 

[Vinayaka]

While I appreciate your perspective, there are those in Hinduism and other beliefs that consider him just that.

Not too many though, I think. The majority belief is probably that it's irrelevant. Course I could be wrong.

As per the OP, I don't bow my head. How can you see who else isn't bowing their head if you bow yours? Lots of people don't.

 

[Thief]

Good point! I'm a staunch advocate of the human right to express oneself however one sees fit (so long as it both harms no one, and at least has the theoretical potential to irritate Donald Trump), but I have to admit, you have a point there.

I'd soften your message by leaving out the "arrogant" though, not on the grounds that anything requires you to soften it, but because it's so darn hard being sure of someone's actual motive(s) in writing in a hard to understand style.

For instance, in bars, I have long been in the habit of asking ladies if I can buy them a drink in such convoluted sentences that while they are still saying things like, "Why no! I mean, yes! I mean maybe! I mean, what the hell do you mean?" I'm already back with a nice cocktail for them. But my motive is not arrogance, but an exceedingly profound fear of rejection, combined with an astute appreciation of just how suave and cool I must look to them when I pop up at their elbow, cocktail in hand.

you could have done better.....here's how.....

ask them what they are drinking
then with straw in hand......ask for a sip

comment about what you taste
buy them another one.....

there you go

 

[outlawState]

This is a very interesting point you make here.

Christians evangelize thereby impose a lot of their opinions Jesus upon us [Jesus is God, trinity, Jesus is Son of God]. And we have to swallow this. And I meet Christians everywhere doing their evangelizing stuff. What this OP was partly about even.

But the moment a non-Christian tells his belief then the Christians "feels" he has the right to be demeaning by telling the other his religion is inferior/wrong/bad etc. [And then even blame me, for answering their question, that it is inappropriate to share my belief in a Church]. Craziness.

And in these years I only shared my belief after they insisted like minimum 3 times. Because I "hated" these stupid confrontations. Now I am a little less shy.

Yes but you can't really expect to walk into a church without being ready to give an account of your beliefs. If you have no reason to be there, why are you there? Of course everything can be OTT. So I'm not excusing what I don't know but if you walk into a church, people have a right to question you.

As I have pointed out, churches are not public, unless State churches. P.u.s.s.y. Riot were jailed in Russia for desecrating a State church maliciously. There have been many thefts from churches. If someone has no purpose being in a church, may be their intentions are malicious.

Heck, the espiscopal church in my current locale (a listed 19th century building) currently lies in ruins, having been burnt down by some atheist jerk, whom was later jailed, incurring a $multi-million loss to some insurance company.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

At my daughter's graduation party, my ex-wife's husband (who is a devout Christian) asked a guest who is a pastor at his church to lead a prayer before food was served.

As the prayer began, I glanced around to room to see who was listening, who had their head bowed, and who had the expression of, "Is it almost over?" written on their faces.

I'm not a Christian, and while I don't bow my head, I'm not bothered or offended by others' needs for an invocation before a meal or other sort of event.

Do you feel it is disrespectful for someone of a different faith or no faith at all to not remove their hat or bow their head during a prayer or invocation?

Do you feel disrespected if someone attempts to embarrass you into making this gesture if you don't follow that specific religion?

If I'm an invited guest in someone's home, I'll bow my head. It's their thing and I accepted it by accepting their invitation.

If it's, say, grace before a luncheon at a conference of a society I belong to or an invocation at a sporting event, I don't bow my head. I'm there on equal terms with the religious folk and they're not entitled to my invisibility.

And in most cases, trying to put a religious - typically Christian - stamp on what would be a secular event is pretty offensive and disrespectful. Christian prayer doesn't need any special accommodation; if a Christian feels like praying before they eat, they can just go ahead and pray by themselves. These sorts of invocations aren't about accommodating religious people; they're about imposing religion.

Screw that, I say. Pray if it makes you happy; just don't involve me.