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Do you believe we all have souls?
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Runt
Well-Known Member
I believe in all these things. But I believe there is more to our world than mere science can attest to. Science is based off of what can be measured with our senses and the instruments we make to measure what we CANNOT sense alone. Therefore, in my opinion science is limited to human observation, reason, and creation, and as such is flawed.
*shrugs* But perhaps I'm a "spiritual" atheist?
Runt
If science can detect that which is based in nature and that which only affects us on the physical plane, how is it possible for you to believe there is anything beyond that?
If something cannot be detected or observed and cannot affect you in any way, then it simply does not exist.
If science can detect that which is based in nature and that which only affects us on the physical plane, how is it possible for you to believe there is anything beyond that?
If something cannot be detected or observed and cannot affect you in any way, then it simply does not exist.
Runt
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking more along the lines of things that DO affect us, but are not acknowledged by science.
For example... science knows that everything is energy... EVERYTHING. Science can look at the behavior of little clumps of this energy (subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, biological organisms, communities of biological organisms, weather, etc), and it can determine the nature of each of these little clumps... but what about the vast totality of energy? ALL OF IT.
Some scientific theory (string?) dictates that all energy interacts with other energy, indicating that it is all interconnected in some vast, incomprehensible way. Therefore, just as the energy of every atom, every molecule, every system of of a single biological organism is basically an ARRANGEMENT of energy with a specific nature when it combines to form a whole (combining to form "me" or "you")... so all the nature of the universe, ALL OF IT, when viewed in its totality, forms...something. Something vast, incomprehensible, unknowable...something that CANNOT be viewed by science simply because it is so big.
I call this Something, whatever it is, "God". I know nothing about this God. I cannot try to define what it IS beyond saying that it is vast, incomprehensible, and unknowable, but using my meager human logic I can try to define what it ISN'T.
It does not have a personality... this is something that biological organisms have. Therefore, it is not loving, caring, angry, wrathful, or any other human/biological emotion. The best I can perhaps say, using these imperfect human emotions to describe something that is inhuman and has no emotions, is that this Something is "apathetic" or "uncaring".
It is not finite... how can something that is EVERYTHING, all energy, be finite when energy cannot be created or destroyed?
It is not male or female, but encompasses both (because It, being the totality of energy, encompasses the biological world, which has gender).
Does this view make me an atheist? If so, then "atheist" just took on a new definition for me...
For example... science knows that everything is energy... EVERYTHING. Science can look at the behavior of little clumps of this energy (subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, biological organisms, communities of biological organisms, weather, etc), and it can determine the nature of each of these little clumps... but what about the vast totality of energy? ALL OF IT.
Some scientific theory (string?) dictates that all energy interacts with other energy, indicating that it is all interconnected in some vast, incomprehensible way. Therefore, just as the energy of every atom, every molecule, every system of of a single biological organism is basically an ARRANGEMENT of energy with a specific nature when it combines to form a whole (combining to form "me" or "you")... so all the nature of the universe, ALL OF IT, when viewed in its totality, forms...something. Something vast, incomprehensible, unknowable...something that CANNOT be viewed by science simply because it is so big.
I call this Something, whatever it is, "God". I know nothing about this God. I cannot try to define what it IS beyond saying that it is vast, incomprehensible, and unknowable, but using my meager human logic I can try to define what it ISN'T.
It does not have a personality... this is something that biological organisms have. Therefore, it is not loving, caring, angry, wrathful, or any other human/biological emotion. The best I can perhaps say, using these imperfect human emotions to describe something that is inhuman and has no emotions, is that this Something is "apathetic" or "uncaring".
It is not finite... how can something that is EVERYTHING, all energy, be finite when energy cannot be created or destroyed?
It is not male or female, but encompasses both (because It, being the totality of energy, encompasses the biological world, which has gender).
Does this view make me an atheist? If so, then "atheist" just took on a new definition for me...
Runt
I think I see the problem here. What you need is a couple of courses in physics - everything you consider 'incomprehensible' will become crystal clear.
The various forms of energy are well understood, there is no vast mystery about it at all.
I would be happy to answer any questions you have on the subject.
Perhaps you can start a new thread and we'll continue there rather than derail this thread further.
I think I see the problem here. What you need is a couple of courses in physics - everything you consider 'incomprehensible' will become crystal clear.
The various forms of energy are well understood, there is no vast mystery about it at all.
I would be happy to answer any questions you have on the subject.
Perhaps you can start a new thread and we'll continue there rather than derail this thread further.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
runt, that would make you more of an agnostic, not an atheist.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
and Q, just as saint anselm said... one does not believe in god after the understanding of god, one understands god after the belief in god. meaning, just because science cannot detect it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, for thousands of people all over the world are affected by "god" every day. and sure science can detect that which is based in nature, but what is nature based in. we cannot of infinite regress. it has to stop somewhere.
Runt
Well-Known Member
Q- Aye, a good working knowledge of physics would help...but I don't think we can ever fully understand the nature of the totality of energy. Different forms of energy, yes. The way these different forms behave, yes. The way these different forms interact with one another (chemistry, physics, bio-chemestry, biology, cellular biology, etc), yes. But I do not think that any system of science can look at ALL energy at the same time, watch the different forms of energy within it interact as a whole, and know the nature of this Thing...
I've known a few "high level" scientists in my life. One, a professor of cellular biology, told me that he was an atheist through his entire childhood, teenage, and young adult life. Then he started really getting into the sciences, and started suspecting that science barely defines the "bigger picture". He is now agnostic... he discovered spirituality when studying cellular biology...
I've known a few "high level" scientists in my life. One, a professor of cellular biology, told me that he was an atheist through his entire childhood, teenage, and young adult life. Then he started really getting into the sciences, and started suspecting that science barely defines the "bigger picture". He is now agnostic... he discovered spirituality when studying cellular biology...
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
my sister got her bachelors in microbiology, and after she started getting deep into it, she figured out how great "god" is. and how smart "god" must of been to cause all of what has happened in the universe. science can only take you so far.
Vigil
one does not believe in god after the understanding of god, one understands god after the belief in god.
This is circular reasoning and is based on the premise that gods exist.
meaning, just because science cannot detect it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
If it exists in nature, it can be detected by science. If it doesnt exist in nature, it cannot be detected; hence it cannot exist in nature and therefore cannot affect us in any way.
thousands of people all over the world are affected by "god" every day
Or, more accurately, they are affected by their belief in god. If god existed in nature, we would all be affected and faith is no more. That is the entire concept of faith in gods.
and sure science can detect that which is based in nature, but what is nature based in
Reality.
science can only take you so far.
Science is about learning and understanding how everything works. If we eventually understand how everything works, it might lead us to understand why everything works. Until then, we can only speculate why they work the way they do. Science will take you as far as you want to go. A belief will take you only as far as your own imagination.
Runt
But I do not think that any system of science can look at ALL energy at the same time, watch the different forms of energy within it interact as a whole, and know the nature of this Thing...
I dont understand what youre getting at. Why would we need to look at ALL energy at the same time? Energy does not interact as a whole or as a Thing.
He is now agnostic... he discovered spirituality when studying cellular biology...
Thats nice. But you will find that the majority, very large majority of people that study the hard sciences inevitably realize that the laws of nature govern everything.
And as I stated, if you took the time to understand energy, all your questions would be answered.
one does not believe in god after the understanding of god, one understands god after the belief in god.
This is circular reasoning and is based on the premise that gods exist.
meaning, just because science cannot detect it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
If it exists in nature, it can be detected by science. If it doesnt exist in nature, it cannot be detected; hence it cannot exist in nature and therefore cannot affect us in any way.
thousands of people all over the world are affected by "god" every day
Or, more accurately, they are affected by their belief in god. If god existed in nature, we would all be affected and faith is no more. That is the entire concept of faith in gods.
and sure science can detect that which is based in nature, but what is nature based in
Reality.
science can only take you so far.
Science is about learning and understanding how everything works. If we eventually understand how everything works, it might lead us to understand why everything works. Until then, we can only speculate why they work the way they do. Science will take you as far as you want to go. A belief will take you only as far as your own imagination.
Runt
But I do not think that any system of science can look at ALL energy at the same time, watch the different forms of energy within it interact as a whole, and know the nature of this Thing...
I dont understand what youre getting at. Why would we need to look at ALL energy at the same time? Energy does not interact as a whole or as a Thing.
He is now agnostic... he discovered spirituality when studying cellular biology...
Thats nice. But you will find that the majority, very large majority of people that study the hard sciences inevitably realize that the laws of nature govern everything.
And as I stated, if you took the time to understand energy, all your questions would be answered.
Runt
Well-Known Member
Q-
Energy DOES interact...
energy--->electrons--->atoms--->biological molecules--->tissue--->biological systems--->humans... it all comes back to pure energy. We are pure energy, but the particular arrangement of that pure energy gives you a human. Or bigger arrangements of pure energy give you other things.
energy--->electrons--->atoms--->molecules--->gases--->sun
energy--->electrons--->atoms--->molecules--->gases--->suns--->galaxy
energy--->electrons--->atoms
--->molecules
--->gases --------> "God"
--->organisms
--->sun
--->universe
--->matter
That probably didn't help for you much...I don't know how to explain it further...
Yes, well, they can have their atheism and I will have my agnosticism.
The more I study science, the more I find that it helps FORM my beliefs about "God". But I guess it is up to the individual.
Energy DOES interact...
energy--->electrons--->atoms--->biological molecules--->tissue--->biological systems--->humans... it all comes back to pure energy. We are pure energy, but the particular arrangement of that pure energy gives you a human. Or bigger arrangements of pure energy give you other things.
energy--->electrons--->atoms--->molecules--->gases--->sun
energy--->electrons--->atoms--->molecules--->gases--->suns--->galaxy
energy--->electrons--->atoms
--->molecules
--->gases --------> "God"
--->organisms
--->sun
--->universe
--->matter
That probably didn't help for you much...I don't know how to explain it further...
Yes, well, they can have their atheism and I will have my agnosticism.
The more I study science, the more I find that it helps FORM my beliefs about "God". But I guess it is up to the individual.
Runt
Sorry, you've strung a bunch of words together with arrows - what am I to make of that?
Again, all I can suggest is for you to study energy and understand it rather than trying to guess what you may think it is. If you choose not to do so, it will be your loss as you will never fully understand that which you question.
Sorry, you've strung a bunch of words together with arrows - what am I to make of that?
Again, all I can suggest is for you to study energy and understand it rather than trying to guess what you may think it is. If you choose not to do so, it will be your loss as you will never fully understand that which you question.
Souls do not exist, they're supernatural appeals to incredulity to explain natural phenomena and the processes behind them.
http://www.ahraii.com/brokenreligion/christ/soul.html <an article i wrote on the soul.
http://www.ahraii.com/brokenreligion/christ/soul.html <an article i wrote on the soul.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
only a little while ago, quarks did not exist. Yet now they are detectible by science. Maybe someday in the future science will detect god. who knows.
and yes they are affected by their belief. How about this, what if nature was god. Then everything detected by science is god. And nature of course affects everything we know of. Ever think about that?
And since nature is based in reality, what is reality based in? What if reality is god? what if in the end, everything is based in god? All of which science detects, is based in god? why is that so hard to imagine?
and yes they are affected by their belief. How about this, what if nature was god. Then everything detected by science is god. And nature of course affects everything we know of. Ever think about that?
And since nature is based in reality, what is reality based in? What if reality is god? what if in the end, everything is based in god? All of which science detects, is based in god? why is that so hard to imagine?
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
and also you said...
Thats nice. But you will find that the majority, very large majority of people that study the hard sciences inevitably realize that the laws of nature govern everything.
Where did the laws of nature come from? What if the laws of nature are based in god?
Thats nice. But you will find that the majority, very large majority of people that study the hard sciences inevitably realize that the laws of nature govern everything.
Where did the laws of nature come from? What if the laws of nature are based in god?
Yes. My soul is my eternal self that endures beyond the life of my body and is responsible for all I have done or failed to do during my life. It will see the ongoing consequences of my actions and inactions on the lives of others through countless generations and therein find its joy or sorrow that will be its Heaven or Hell. This soul the imperishable conscience that makes me responsible for my life. A person my think they can get away with cheating others in this world because they don't get caught, but the light of truth within our own souls make us all ultimately accountable.
only a little while ago, quarks did not exist. Yet now they are detectible by science
No, their existence is theorized through observation and experiment. They didnt suddenly appear from nowhere.
Maybe someday in the future science will detect god. who knows.
And that is the day we can all sit down, hold hands and sing kumbaya. But until then that day arrives, the concept of gods is merely a speculative concept and I need not think about it until some sort of evidence to the contrary is provided.
How about this, what if nature was god.
There is no need to apply two labels to one thing. If you wish to call nature god, thats fine, but that would immediately make all religious doctrines null and void. The need for prayer would be useless. Would one begin to pray to a rock or a tree? How about a planet or a galaxy? Or the sun. perhaps?
Then everything detected by science is god. And nature of course affects everything we know of. Ever think about that?
Then, nothing exists but god. Once again, youre applying needless labels.
And since nature is based in reality, what is reality based in? What if reality is god? what if in the end, everything is based in god? All of which science detects, is based in god? why is that so hard to imagine?
Its not hard to imagine. But I dont let my imagination rule my senses. I simply look at reality for what it is and nothing more. And it doesnt require the use of an imagination. Yet, to imply that all of reality is god does require the use of my imagination.
Where did the laws of nature come from? What if the laws of nature are based in god?
Again, that would require the use of my imagination. As well, to deem that the laws of nature are based on god adds unnecessary levels of complexity to already simple concepts. Science can tell you how something works but cant tell you if the hand of god made it so. In nature, there is no evidence to suggest some sort of intelligence made the laws of nature.
It is ones own personal speculation that they want to believe gods made it so.
So, I would have to ask you, what law or laws of nature appear to be controlled by gods?
No, their existence is theorized through observation and experiment. They didnt suddenly appear from nowhere.
Maybe someday in the future science will detect god. who knows.
And that is the day we can all sit down, hold hands and sing kumbaya. But until then that day arrives, the concept of gods is merely a speculative concept and I need not think about it until some sort of evidence to the contrary is provided.
How about this, what if nature was god.
There is no need to apply two labels to one thing. If you wish to call nature god, thats fine, but that would immediately make all religious doctrines null and void. The need for prayer would be useless. Would one begin to pray to a rock or a tree? How about a planet or a galaxy? Or the sun. perhaps?
Then everything detected by science is god. And nature of course affects everything we know of. Ever think about that?
Then, nothing exists but god. Once again, youre applying needless labels.
And since nature is based in reality, what is reality based in? What if reality is god? what if in the end, everything is based in god? All of which science detects, is based in god? why is that so hard to imagine?
Its not hard to imagine. But I dont let my imagination rule my senses. I simply look at reality for what it is and nothing more. And it doesnt require the use of an imagination. Yet, to imply that all of reality is god does require the use of my imagination.
Where did the laws of nature come from? What if the laws of nature are based in god?
Again, that would require the use of my imagination. As well, to deem that the laws of nature are based on god adds unnecessary levels of complexity to already simple concepts. Science can tell you how something works but cant tell you if the hand of god made it so. In nature, there is no evidence to suggest some sort of intelligence made the laws of nature.
It is ones own personal speculation that they want to believe gods made it so.
So, I would have to ask you, what law or laws of nature appear to be controlled by gods?