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Do you believe that war is murder?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 27, 2005.

?
  1. Yes (explain in post)

    13 vote(s)
    59.1%
  2. No (explain in post)

    6 vote(s)
    27.3%
  3. Beats me

    3 vote(s)
    13.6%
  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    My youngest brother was a Marine during the Beruit thing. He wanted to kill them all if they ordered him to. After he studied the bible and saw God's viewpoint through both the old testament and new testament, his viewpoint has changed.

    Killing is killing. The Iraquis are wrong, the afghans are wrong, the americans are wrong, everyone that kills in battle of any kind is in direct violation and are contradicting the christian code of morals and ethics. All such are termed, murderers. The scriptures even go on to state that those who do such things have no eternal life remaining in them.

    Everyone that kills at the orders of someone else and or themselves is guilty of murder in the Christian God's eyes.

    Every war and conflict where people were killed was wrong and all the future ones are wrong according to Christianity.

    Romans 12:9-21 (world english bible)
    12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil. Cling to that which is good. 12:10 In love of the brothers be tenderly affectionate one to another; in honor preferring one another; 12:11 not lagging in diligence; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12:12 rejoicing in hope; enduring in troubles; continuing steadfastly in prayer; 12:13 contributing to the needs of the saints; given to hospitality. 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless, and don’t curse. 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep. 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Don’t set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Don’t be wise in your own conceits. 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Respect what is honorable in the sight of all men. 12:18 If it is possible, as much as it is up to you, be at peace with all men. 12:19 Don’t seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God’s wrath. For it is written, “Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord.” 12:20 Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head.” 12:21 Don’t be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
     
  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

    2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.

    2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (Mt 5:9).

    ** edit: Moved thread to Debate Forum **
     
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  3. TheIdealist

    TheIdealist Member

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    acts 7:24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:


    And what about this verse .

    Brother with scriptures you can make any point you want.

    what matters is are we in tune with the Lord to be able to make life altering desicions and feel that we are ok. I do not have regrets, i did not become blood thirsty , i did not seek to harm or injure anyone. I am not promoting war, iam promoting that we protect our families and country.
    Unfortunately there are corrupt men in the goverment but there are good men also and we will make a change from the inside out and you will make a change from the outside but dont think at all that you can condemn me or any other fellow soldier who is willing to put his life on the line for you while you sit here and enjoy your freedoms. I understand you dont want to be military thats fine iam proud to go to war because people like you are back here thinking and creating.

    John 15: 13
    13- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    Now iam definatley not saying i have this love myself but it is something i hope one day we can all attain and i believe people who go to war and die are doing just this. I believe
    we must fight with word until the pen is exhausted and then pick up the sword when all else fails.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me... I must have missed an earlier post of yours..... what branch of the service are you in, and it what combat area did you serve in?

    Scott
     
  5. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    You know, I'd expect this sort of naivety from a kindergardener, but this is ridiculous..... Do you realise that God sent the Israelites to invade Canaan, and in many cases they were not allowed to leave a single man alive? I also recall a young David killing a certain Goliath, as well as a Sampson killing thousands with the power GOD gave him. Now whether you take those story literally, or symbolically, it doesn't matter. Either way they represent a God that has endorsed killing.
    Oh, but that's the God of the Old Testament......... bah..... it's the same God Christians serve today. Now, that may not make you feel all happy and warm inside, but if you base your faith on scripture, then you'll have to suck it up and accept it!

    Also, you all do realise that this country (USA) was founded on war, right? Britain didn't exactly hand us our independence. You realise, that if America decided that war was a bad-bad, then we would all be speaking German, and heiling Adolf Hitler Jr..
    This isn't a Utopian planet. Just because SOME people think war is a bad thing, doesn't mean EVERYBODY will. If we don't go to war, then somebody else will, whether we think they're going to hell, or not. Are we just to write them e-mails telling them that war is murder, so they shouldn't do it?
    And what about the World Trade Center? Should we have told Osama that he better not do that again, or we'll get really upset?

    And at what point would one consider killing not murdering? Are we supporting the murder of cows when we eat at McDonalds? "Oh, but that's food", you might say, "we need that for survival." Ok, so your survival is more important than the cows? How's that any different than a defending yourself from a true murderer?
    Now, that's a ridiculous arguement that shows how ridiculous you could get with this.

    When you go and call a person that kills to defend himself a murderer, that basically equates him to Saddam Hussein, or Charles Manson.

    Now I won't argue that God sanctions all wars. I won't argue that He doesn't either. God hasn't yet disclosed all of that information to me.... and I don't suspect He will.

    And as for the "mindless soldier following orders" comments.... for one thing, you're letting the individual escape his accountability for his actions. For another, soldiers in combat get to see the real world, not the fake shadow of one that you get by watching CNN from the safety of your home. A soldier chooses whether he will cower in battle, or be brave and face death in a foreign land, leagues away from family and loved ones. What kind of major challenges have you faced today? Whether you wear boxers, or briefs? You're sitting at home making the easy, mindless decisions that aren't going to make a consequence to anybody outside of yout circle. The soldier is making decisions that ensure your freedom of "boxers, or briefs", and your lifestyle.
    What keeps the soldier in the firefight, despite the chances of death, or worse, capture. I'll tell you. It's loyalty - to his comrades, patriotism - to his country, love - of his family and their way of life, duty - can't count on people like you to do it, honor - maybe a little kinder word than pride, integrity - we pledged to protect our country, because you wouldn't, and so we will.
    I bet you don't have the faintest idea what the common soldier's life is in Iraq, but you sure do feel qualified to call him "mindless". So where does this qualification come? I suppose you're so familiar with mindlessness that you feel perfectly liscensed to undiscriminately label something of which you know nothing about.

    If the shoe fits, wear it.
     
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  6. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    I was not in the war and I hopefully will never be in a war on the side of the oppressor.
    I call it "mindless" because soldiers have been taught to instinctively kill, not to think, just kill. I have known many military people(marines, army, and navy) and they all agree that is what the military teaches[I am guessing it is similar in most/all countries]. That is what a military is for. If too many people think, the orders will not be followed because people will realize they are murdering each other. Since we do not live in Utopia, I believe a military is necessary for DEFENSE, not invasion; but soldiers need to be able to reason things out and think for themselves and TRUST their leaders and be able to make the differentiation between murder and defense.
    You are right that I have not murdered(or killed any person whatsoever), except the animals I used to kill for food. I no longer do that since I realized there is no reason to kill animals when we can get everything we need from non animal sources.
    Killing should be the very last resort. Almost all things, when dealing with clinically sane individuals, can be solved through negotiations.
    We should not have pride in our country or our state or city. If we are to feel any pride at all it should be for the sake of God, not patriotism or George Bush. Our loyalty should be with God, not our country. When we place our loyalty with God, then those with eyes can see. Too many people fight for their country instead of God. Countries are led by men or women who can make the wrong decisions and if there is a war, then at least 1 country is wrong, if not both. God is never wrong.
     
  7. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    In the case of the Iraq Invasion, war is murder. And George W. Bush is the murderer.
     
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  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    When Peter lashed out with a sword to defend his Master, Jesus said to him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52) Since then, Jesus’ footstep followers have beaten their swords into plowshares and have refrained from taking up weapons to kill their fellow man and from supporting war efforts in other ways. They pursue peace with all people.the fact that he had a sword just goes to show how mankind needs the teaching from the great teacher Jesus christ, the same way the early disiples did back then.There are many who at one time did take part in war ,but after learning About the peacefulteaching of the bible they laid down their weapons .I suppose it depends on weather we want to uphold the teachings of the bible or go along with the world and its way of doing things

     
  9. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

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    No, I don't believe a soldier is guilty of "murder" if he kills an enemy, they are trying to kill him. When a soldier hits the ground in a battle zone, it's a matter of kill or be killed. Now, if a soldier purposely kills civilians for no other reason than he thought it would be fun, or his military or government feels that it's useful to terrorize the civilian population (I.E. Rape of Nanking, but there are many others) that is murder and both soldier and government is responsible.

    Civilians get killed all the time in war, sometimes purposely but most times not, but The rank and file soldier is generally mainly concerned with those that pose a real, immediate threat to them. As far as bomber pilots go, the only thing I can go on is what I have read in books and have seen through interviews on A&E, Discovery, History channel etc. I don't remember seeing or reading about anyone being proud or happy that their bombs most likely killed civilians as well as the intended target, quite the opposite, most were very remorseful and regretful. Most knew that civilians would probably die when they were on a mission, but pushed the button anyway- the only comfort being that they knew if they bomb "x" or "y" factory, that would result in less tanks, arms, ammunition etc. that the enemy would have access to that would be used to kill soldiers from their country.

    I also feel that there are "just" wars and then there are just wars.
     
  10. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    "
    [/QUOTE]Hoomer, may I ask, if you are not a Christian, than why do you use the Bible as a standard to define the parameters of what you call murder? Interesting when people do that..because, (and maybe there could be a thread on this), to say you are not a Christian may be true but equally true is to say its word inspires you in as far its contents become qualifed to you in the defining of your reality.[/QUOTE]
    ANSwer...because you donthave to be a christian to understand common sense!
    I REALY like the hindu texts called "the Upanishads"...am I gonna become a hindu.? NO,.....but I can see beauty...its plain in the words of the upanishads
     
  11. TheIdealist

    TheIdealist Member

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    To john313,
    You use Edmund Burkes quote yet you support doing nothing to protect your friends and family this i dont understand. First dont generalize military personel and i wont generalize civilians. We all know there are weak minded people everywhere. Second i would like you to explain to us what do you recommend we do when were attacked, of course i understand Christ taught to turn the other cheek but that is only when it affects you and you are not responsible for lives of others. Are we not to defend our families and this land the Lord has given us. Look outside the box and see how many people the Lord has blessed with this country inside and out. Unfortunatley we do not live in a perfect world and people get killed sometimes "it is better that one man perish than a whole nation" Christ taught the law of sacrafice through His life and death. Yes i disagree with war and coldblooded killing but i realize it is a part of this world and until Christ comes it wont end. So until then brother i with the others will go to arms to defend our way of life that we may maintain freedom and peace in lands that so wish to do and if it takes a war to bring freedom to people, such as freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom to grow and gain the life good people want
    so they can live in peace then so be it and if you cant understand that I pity the people you are around if you ever end up in war because when you let innocent people die not only is there blood on the hands who shed but also those who allowed it my friend.

    p.s. How are the rightous supposed to gather at all if the majority is oppressed and split up. You speak of being a follower of Christ but dont want to serve your fellow man? Iam not judging you brother i just cannot understand at all your views. forgive me if i offend you.
     
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  12. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    Any person that tells you that a soldier is trained to kill intinctively is either lying to you, or is as ignorant about the entire situation as you are, and that's ignorant in the literal sense, not to be taken offensively. That's such a misleading comment in itself that I can almost excuse you from it, because it's too ridiculous to actually be true. For one thing, the Army doesn't brainwash people. Now if the person telling you this stuff is like 80 years old, and was in the army 40 years ago, then I can't say anything, because I wasn't there, and don't pretend to know what happened, and how they were trained. Our modern army is a bit more sophisticated then you think. In fact we're constantly trained and briefed about the laws of war. Every soldier knows that if pulls the trigger at the wrong person, or in the wrong situation, then he can find himself in jail for the rest of his life, or in the elctric chair even. In fact, many soldiers die because they HAVE to think twice before killing, and because of the treacherous nature of the enemy. I'm sure you've heard the story of how insurgents will play dead while they're pulling the pin of a hidden grenade.
    Now, for you to argue that soldiers are mindless killing machines is completely born of your lack of knowledge, and your willingness to accept the garbage that people vomit to denounce some of their greatest heroes.

    So fight the war on our turf? We've seen that. Pearl Harbor, World Trade Center..... is that what you want more of?

    I hope you realize that I was being facetious. I said that comment only to show how ridiculous one could get if he wanted to go too far. I don't endorse eating only lettuce the rest of your life.

    Well, that brings a couple of points. By what standards do you judge on insane, and also, how do you propose getting these people to voluntarily be evaluated. Should F.D.R. have told the people "Well, we're awaiting the results of Hitler's psychoanalysis before we make plans to go to war."
    Well, if you had a british psychiatrist examining him then, you'd probably be happy with the results. But what if you had a german doing it? Or do you have to psychoanalyze, the psychoanlyzers first? Or maybe it should just be based on popular vote.
    You see where that's getting.

    Really............. and what resource is this belief based on? Does this ancient and wise treasure allow us to have pride in our children? Our work? Or is it severly limited to what feels right at the time?

    The World Trade Center was destroyed in the name of Allah. The witch hunt and inquisition were done for the glory of the Lord. The massacre and rape of Hagia Sofia was even in the name of God!
    So tell me, when does one know that war is done for God?


    Now, for t3gah,
    Emphasis added.
    Well, I think the emphasis says enough, and demonstrates exactly what we're talking about. There are those who want to kill, and those who will kill. There shouldn't be any pleasure in killing..... except that you're still alive maybe....

    And in what context of scripture is this in? Is this the T3gah Abridged Version? Once again, do we not count the Old Testament? Please tell me in what portion of scripture did Christ even address the issue of war? Isn't He (according to Revelations) coming down with the saints in the battle of Armeggedon? I don't think that's referencing the Christ coming down to negotiate a peace agreement.

    Your taking quite a bit of liberty here. Tell me, do you subscribe to Omnipotent Weekly, or does God e-mail you these revelations directly?

    Well, if you don't count Armegeddon....

    Well, I don't recall hearing about God coming down from the heavens to smite Adolf Hitler, the butcher of God's chosen people. Now is God just making empty promises, or could He have possibly used the Allies?


    Now I have really good question.
    Are there any here who argue that war is murder, that would like to defend abortion?
    That would be an interesting conflict of ideals......
     
  13. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    I feel when a soldier is killing in defence/attack of other armed soldiers/attackers than he is not commiting 'murder'
    When a soldier kills a bystander or unarmed/injured 'enemy' than he is commiting 'murder'.

    Murder is tradtionally the killing of someone within your peer-group. Definition of what your particular peer-group is varies depending on the culture you are basing your definition on.
    The rule of law in warfare is that killing civilians as well as the injured/unarmed soldiers of the opposing team is wrong/unlawful. Thus according to the rule of warfare such a death becomes a murder.

    War has very specific rules for very good reasons. Our capacity to kill indescriminately and on massive scales has increased to the point that without such laws in place we could well wipe ourselves out. Thus maintaining the sacntity of those laws is paramount for the benifit of the species as a whole. IMHO

    wa:do
     
  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Murder is illegal killing. Legal, of course, is a pretty fluid concept. The Nazi's final solution was "legal" at the time, it did not technically violate the biblical commandment not to murder, but it was arguably immoral, nonetheless.
     
  15. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    war is not murder in the same way that a big mac isnt food.....
     
  16. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    From Dictionary.com
    1.) War isn't unlawful. Those who make the laws also make the war. Even if you want to make some sort of case against that, since the U.N. and allied nations have declared some wars unlawful, no U.S. war has been declared unlawful. And I believe you're lacking in the pre-meditated malice section also. So you don't have an arguement there.

    2.) Ok, if you want to use the slang form of the word, then war is murder, because it certanly is uncomfortable, difficult, and hazardous. But then again so is my wifes cooking. So I suppose she commits acts of murder every night. Hmmm... I suppose, if this is the angle you'd like to argue from, that we've all commited some act of murder in our lives.

    3.) Hmmm.... crows.... can't find a way to defend your statement there.


    And now

    Hey, you got one right! 50% aint half bad!..... Ok, it is actually.

    Won't you please marvel us with some more of your horribly inaccurate analogies!
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Refusing to go to war did not make things easy for the early Christians. It went against the accepted beliefs of the day. Celsus, an enemy of Christianity, mocked their position. His belief was that everyone should go to war when those in power demanded it. Despite immense hostility, early Christians refused to follow any human philosophy that contradicted the teachings of Christ. "We must obey God as ruler rather than men," they said.—Acts 4:19; 5:29.food for thought dont you think.

     
  18. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

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    If someone didn't commit "murder" at some point, we probably wouldn't be sitting where we are right now.
     
  19. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Do you believe that war is murder?

    I believe that murder is just one way of exiting this physical existence.
     
  20. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    In that case, perhaps we should NOT be "sitting where we are right now." Consider the murder of countless Native Americans by invading Pilgrims and their progeny--all in the name of God, of course. :eek:
     
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