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Do you believe that war is murder?
- Thread starter chris9178
- Start date
No*s
Captain Obvious
No. If we are to take biblical definitions, we have to remember that the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is included in the same book that includes laws for war.
If we are to use philisophical definitions, then we can only consider it murder when it is unneccessary. Sadly, sometimes a nation will have to fight.
Is it sinful? Now that I can say yes to in every category. Is it just? Never. Is it sometimes neccessary? Sadly.
If we are to use philisophical definitions, then we can only consider it murder when it is unneccessary. Sadly, sometimes a nation will have to fight.
Is it sinful? Now that I can say yes to in every category. Is it just? Never. Is it sometimes neccessary? Sadly.
TheIdealist
Member
It depends where the heart of the person who has to kill is, i believe if he is enjoying the taking of life then that is murder now if he believes he is fighting for freedom and country and his heart is in it
he definatley does not enjoy having to take another persons life and that is not murder. So war is not murder and unfortunatley is required in this life because its a sin not to defend ones family and country in my belief.
he definatley does not enjoy having to take another persons life and that is not murder. So war is not murder and unfortunatley is required in this life because its a sin not to defend ones family and country in my belief.
TheIdealist
Member
My law of life....if you affect anyone else in a negative manner.....you are wrong. Killing is definitively negative.-huajiro
So what do you consider killing to defend your family?
So what do you consider killing to defend your family?
I've gotta agree with the Idealist on this one. As with almost everything else, it's in the heart. Now, that's not to justify anything, because God knows our hearts MUCH better than we do. Humans tend to lie to themselves, or get in denial.
This question was posed to me by a reporter in September 2003. I hadn't, at that time, really thought much about it, or Theology at all for that matter, so I gave him one of those "I dunno...". Of course, that really made me think about it, because at the time I was a soldier in Iraq.
Well, after looking back at it all, I never did have the desire to kill anybody. In fact, it would really **** me off when everybody else wouold be talking about how they wanted to kill a bunch of Iraqis. I had to step in a few times even. But that's also a lot of machoism on their part. I don't think they actually felt like that (some did), but most just said it to be cool.
Anyways, I think it's a condition of the heart. God had the Israelites at war all the time, so to say God is against it wouldn't make much sense.
So I'd have to argue that there is a definite line between war and murder. But only you and God will know which side you fall in.
This question was posed to me by a reporter in September 2003. I hadn't, at that time, really thought much about it, or Theology at all for that matter, so I gave him one of those "I dunno...". Of course, that really made me think about it, because at the time I was a soldier in Iraq.
Well, after looking back at it all, I never did have the desire to kill anybody. In fact, it would really **** me off when everybody else wouold be talking about how they wanted to kill a bunch of Iraqis. I had to step in a few times even. But that's also a lot of machoism on their part. I don't think they actually felt like that (some did), but most just said it to be cool.
Anyways, I think it's a condition of the heart. God had the Israelites at war all the time, so to say God is against it wouldn't make much sense.
So I'd have to argue that there is a definite line between war and murder. But only you and God will know which side you fall in.
Greyprophet
Member
Taking anothers life for the purpose of anothers agenda is always murder. If it is not true self defense it is murder. Therefore any country imposing its will on another is in the wrong.
Peace in Christ.
Peace in Christ.
Hi No*;
Quote[ Is it sinful? Now that I can say yes to in every category. Is it just? Never. Is it sometimes neccessary? Sadly.]
I agree with you; I am a little bit reluctant to your 'is it just? Never'; I know exactly what you mean, of course, but is there not a case for 'the lesser sin' ?ie not killing would be more sinful (as an act of omission, in order to satisfy one's conscience) than the act of killing?
Quote[ Is it sinful? Now that I can say yes to in every category. Is it just? Never. Is it sometimes neccessary? Sadly.]
I agree with you; I am a little bit reluctant to your 'is it just? Never'; I know exactly what you mean, of course, but is there not a case for 'the lesser sin' ?ie not killing would be more sinful (as an act of omission, in order to satisfy one's conscience) than the act of killing?
robtex
Veteran Member
Murder is the intentional killing of another being. War is sanctioned mass murder would be a more accurate way to state this. If the war is in response to an adverse situation or invasion than the murders are done in self-defense. Any intentional killing is murder and I think we get hung up on the negative connocations that are associated with the word murder. I think everyone has vary degrees of when murder is acceptable and some are more narrow (like mine) than others in scope.
No*s
Captain Obvious
michel said:I agree with you; I am a little bit reluctant to your 'is it just? Never'; I know exactly what you mean, of course, but is there not a case for 'the lesser sin' ?ie not killing would be more sinful (as an act of omission, in order to satisfy one's conscience) than the act of killing?
We agree wholeheartedly on our views here. We agree that there are times when we have to choose between the lesser of two evils...but I can't see it imparting justice. It's simply a forced choice.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
10 times out of 9, war is just plain wrong. Those who initiate it are mass murderers.
Soldiers, however are bound to obedience, much as slaves are. They by definition must fight, and fight to kill.
However, I don't have the final say on this!
Soldiers, however are bound to obedience, much as slaves are. They by definition must fight, and fight to kill.
However, I don't have the final say on this!
robtex
Veteran Member
Within the parameters of your above statement what constitures a murder, a war killng and is there an overlap by what constitutes one who kills in war and one who murders? Are the two,NetDoc said:10 times out of 9, war is just plain wrong. Those who initiate it are mass murderers.
Soldiers, however are bound to obedience, much as slaves are. They by definition must fight, and fight to kill.
However, I don't have the final say on this!
1) murder
2) killing in war
more aptly explained as complinatary actions or actions that are opposite in nature and or reason?
If you tell me to kill my neighbor, is it legal for me to do so?
If the neighborhood improvement association told me to do so, would it be OK then?
How about if the whole town council charged me to kill him? What if the whole state voted for his death. Wouldn't that justify my killing him?
What gives a large body of people the authority to make and excuse moral decisions for a particular individual, while a small body may not? Aren't we individually responsible for our own acts?
Can my Sargent , my General or my government take the responsibility for an act unto themselves? Wouldn't this usurp a power Christians claim resides solely in Jesus? Wouldn't all Christians therefore repudiate government military authority?
It baffles me how good people can attend church each Sunday and extol the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount -- then join an organization whose clear purpose is to kill people and destroy things; an organization that requires an oath abdicating moral responsibility and pledging obedience without regard to moral consequences.
If the neighborhood improvement association told me to do so, would it be OK then?
How about if the whole town council charged me to kill him? What if the whole state voted for his death. Wouldn't that justify my killing him?
What gives a large body of people the authority to make and excuse moral decisions for a particular individual, while a small body may not? Aren't we individually responsible for our own acts?
Can my Sargent , my General or my government take the responsibility for an act unto themselves? Wouldn't this usurp a power Christians claim resides solely in Jesus? Wouldn't all Christians therefore repudiate government military authority?
It baffles me how good people can attend church each Sunday and extol the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount -- then join an organization whose clear purpose is to kill people and destroy things; an organization that requires an oath abdicating moral responsibility and pledging obedience without regard to moral consequences.
If a police officer sees a dangerous felon fleeing through a crowd, and fires at the miscreant, he can be brought up on charges, because he endangered the lives of innocents.
If an Air Force pilot drops a bomb on a city -- knowing full well that his act will result in the death of innocent women and children, why is he held innocent?
Why do right-wing Christian fundamentalists condemn abortion but honor a soldier who kills a pregnant woman in war? Isn't this a "military abortion"?
In summation (as if it hasn't been clear from my rants), I consider war a moral abomination.
If an Air Force pilot drops a bomb on a city -- knowing full well that his act will result in the death of innocent women and children, why is he held innocent?
Why do right-wing Christian fundamentalists condemn abortion but honor a soldier who kills a pregnant woman in war? Isn't this a "military abortion"?
In summation (as if it hasn't been clear from my rants), I consider war a moral abomination.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Seyorni
I also consider war an abomination. Completely and irrefutably immoral. I was a CO for the Vietnam War and was willing to go to Canada if I had to. So I understand your feelings.
But governments exist and have authority to apply discipline and judgement to it's citizens.
A lynch mob does not have that right.
Even a city does not have that right.
The state and the federal govt have that right.
The man throwing the switch for the electric chair does not have the authority, but he carries out the ruling of the government. He does not commit murder anymore than a soldier.
Now do I think we should keep the death penalty? Nope, but that's a whole nother thread!
I also consider war an abomination. Completely and irrefutably immoral. I was a CO for the Vietnam War and was willing to go to Canada if I had to. So I understand your feelings.
But governments exist and have authority to apply discipline and judgement to it's citizens.
A lynch mob does not have that right.
Even a city does not have that right.
The state and the federal govt have that right.
The man throwing the switch for the electric chair does not have the authority, but he carries out the ruling of the government. He does not commit murder anymore than a soldier.
Now do I think we should keep the death penalty? Nope, but that's a whole nother thread!
TheIdealist
Member
Can my Sargent , my General or my government take the responsibility for an act unto themselves? Wouldn't this usurp a power Christians claim resides solely in Jesus? Wouldn't all Christians therefore repudiate government military authority?
It baffles me how good people can attend church each Sunday and extol the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount -- then join an organization whose clear purpose is to kill people and destroy things; an organization that requires an oath abdicating moral responsibility and pledging obedience without regard to moral consequences.[/QUOTE]
I personally was there i understand your point but my belief in being there was to liberate the people who wanted freedom whether or not the people up top intentions were noble.
I joined the army for the sole purpose of standing up for freedom for my country to fight against tyranny from without and within i realize the people in control look at things alot different than i do and yes it seems they look through eyes full of greed. So comes the question "can i be a true christian and fight for people i dont agree with?" after much meditation and prayer on my part i came to the realization i could start change from within and i feel i did and that i can continue step by step and if i stay focused and follow the teachings of Christ i will continue to see the change and be motivated by it.
i hope this may bring light to your thoughts please excuse the grammar and my rambling on.
It baffles me how good people can attend church each Sunday and extol the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount -- then join an organization whose clear purpose is to kill people and destroy things; an organization that requires an oath abdicating moral responsibility and pledging obedience without regard to moral consequences.[/QUOTE]
I personally was there i understand your point but my belief in being there was to liberate the people who wanted freedom whether or not the people up top intentions were noble.
I joined the army for the sole purpose of standing up for freedom for my country to fight against tyranny from without and within i realize the people in control look at things alot different than i do and yes it seems they look through eyes full of greed. So comes the question "can i be a true christian and fight for people i dont agree with?" after much meditation and prayer on my part i came to the realization i could start change from within and i feel i did and that i can continue step by step and if i stay focused and follow the teachings of Christ i will continue to see the change and be motivated by it.
i hope this may bring light to your thoughts please excuse the grammar and my rambling on.
Inasmuch as you have thought this decision through, Idealist, I honor your choice. But I still have issues with people who believe it is possible, and believe they have successfully, abdicated moral responsibility for their actions.
If I wished to struggle for the general good of mankind I'd be much more comfortable joining the Peace Corps than the military.
If I wished to struggle for the general good of mankind I'd be much more comfortable joining the Peace Corps than the military.
hoomer
Member
Until we realise that war is not the asnwer....we will not progress as a species...vioence leads to vioence and preperation for violence...NOT PEACE....all kiling is WRONG...but I rweaise in an armed society like america..that is something that wont compute...
ALL are ONE....when you kill you kill yourself....seldom in this modern age is war justified...besides that "my morals are better than yours" or "I want you resources"...or "my penis is bigger than yours".....
after 10,000 years of civilisation and history......little has changed
--Ben
"killing is killing whether done for honour duty or fun" ---marilyn manson
"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" with his mouth."
Mark Twain, "What Is Man"?
"Its ok to kill int the name of democracy" ---"the Government lies" by COP SHOT COP
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.
Albert Einstein
"War is not the Answer only love can conquor hate" ---Marvin Gaye
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi
ALL are ONE....when you kill you kill yourself....seldom in this modern age is war justified...besides that "my morals are better than yours" or "I want you resources"...or "my penis is bigger than yours".....
after 10,000 years of civilisation and history......little has changed
--Ben
"killing is killing whether done for honour duty or fun" ---marilyn manson
"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" with his mouth."
Mark Twain, "What Is Man"?
"Its ok to kill int the name of democracy" ---"the Government lies" by COP SHOT COP
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.
Albert Einstein
"War is not the Answer only love can conquor hate" ---Marvin Gaye
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi
TheIdealist
Member
I honor your beliefs and intentions my friend, As for me though i believe good people are needed everywhere and until a higher being or an equal unity society is achieved unfortunetley war will exsist
and if some of us can be there to stop any unecssary blood shed and help all those in need (because we all know war will not include just the wicked there will be the innocent ) then for those of us willing it is our duty to go to that place and I believe that if we put the lives of others before our own I think the Lord will understand.
and if some of us can be there to stop any unecssary blood shed and help all those in need (because we all know war will not include just the wicked there will be the innocent ) then for those of us willing it is our duty to go to that place and I believe that if we put the lives of others before our own I think the Lord will understand.