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Do you believe that the flood actually happened

NetDoc said:
It was to show that there are two different standards for "burden of proof", or more accurately, in regards to "burden of accuracy".

On the one hand we have a text that has been translated (at least once) from a dead language and is now being studied by modern peoples through the filter of time, and it is being held to the strictest of possible meanings (no benefit of the doubt).
If anyone is holding the Bible to the strictest of possible meanings, it is you. You are the one defending the historicity of a ridiculous thousands-of-years-old story that has zero plausibility outside those whose belief in it is a priori. You could at least argue that the story is metaphorical or something, as many liberal Christians do.

NetDoc said:
On the other hand we have a modern writer, writing in the language of the land, with a glaring error, and we are expected to gloss this over with a "you know what I meant" caveat.
Are you still talking about pah? I do not expect you to gloss over anything, I readily conceded the point when I saw that I had mis-spoken. Does this mean you're now willing to concede that the Bible contains "glaring errors"? Somehow I doubt it. :rolleyes:

In my opinion...
1) There was never a global flood, nor any insane two of every animal scenario
2) The authors who wrote the story did not intend it as a metaphor for how much God loves us....that is a self-serving modern interpretation designed to salvage the historical credibility of the works in the Bible. The authors were human, they probably believed the story happened just as they described, and they were simply wrong; just as the writers of countless other mythologies from countless other cultures were wrong. No supernatural floods followed by supernatural cleanings required.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Well. we obviously have differing perceptions over what I believe. :D

No, this is not about Pah. It's about a systematic double standard and modern assumptions about ancient texts. I don't think Pah had anything to do with those.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
NetDoc said:
On the one hand we have a text that has been translated (at least once) from a dead language and is now being studied by modern peoples through the filter of time, and it is being held to the strictest of possible meanings (no benefit of the doubt).
Perhaps you could suggest in what way biocide by global flood is an overly strict interpretation, particularly given your enthusiastic support for the mass killing.
 
NetDoc said:
It's about a systematic double standard and modern assumptions about ancient texts.
My post contained a factual error. The Bible contains a factual error (in this case that a global flood happened during which two of every animal were placed on a boat). How is this a double standard? :confused: Furthermore, what modern assumption(s) have I made about the flood story?

NetDoc said:
Well. we obviously have differing perceptions over what I believe.
Okay then:
1) What do you believe about the flood story?
2) Which of these beliefs do you feel are supported by scientific evidence, and which are supported by your own personal faith alone?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Deut... that's yet another straw man. I think you should adopt TVOR's avatar.

Spinks said:
If anyone is holding the Bible to the strictest of possible meanings,
This is what I was referring to Spinks. I don't see how we can have a "strictest possible meaning" since we really aren't sure what the ancient texts say. Translations are never an exact science, and now we are throwing in a DEAD (nobody is fluent in it from birth) language and translators that may or may not know what the text actually means. Many times translators "assume" what was meant, and really have no idea of the context even with modern languages. This is especially true when it comes to idoms, metaphors and borrowed words.

Please go read my first few posts if you think I just changed to this philosophy. (post #10)
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Applaud? Was I standing or merely sitting when you witnessed this?

Again, we have more strawman arguments from Deut than I know what to do with.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
A Woman's Prayer:
Dear Lord, I pray for:
Wisdom, To understand a man
Love, To forgive him and
Patience, For his moods
Because, Lord, if I pray for Strength
I'll just beat him to death .
 
NetDoc-- Could you please address the points I brought up in my post? I asked you a number of questions which you have not answered. This happens all the time, I'm afraid....you make a claim and I make an argument against it, or I ask a question about it, and you simply ignore me and move on to making more claims. :(

NetDoc said:
This is what I was referring to Spinks. I don't see how we can have a "strictest possible meaning" since we really aren't sure what the ancient texts say.
I see...so you don't know what the flood story originally said, but whatever it was--it was true! As I said earlier, such a perspective is unassailable and makes the observable facts irrelevant. It's like saying "I don't know what I believe on this matter, but whatever my beliefs are, they are correct."

Perhaps the original text contained the part about the supernatural cleaning which followed the flood.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Spinks,

rather than REPEAT MYSELF, go check out post #133. Your questions were answered way back there before you even asked them. I apologise for being rather consumed by someone trying to misrepresent me and what I believe. It's best to review what's been said every now and then so you can keep track.
 
[url]http://www.allaboutcreation.org/the-flood.htm[/url] The Flood - Biblical Story
The Flood (a.k.a. Noah's Flood) is the worldwide cataclysmic event that utterly devastated the earth sometime between 2,000 and 3,000 BC. According to Genesis, chapters 6 through 9, earth's humanity had degenerated into such a cesspool that God, in His sovereignty, decided to purge the earth. He graciously chose to spare a single human family and a variety of representatives from the animal kingdom to repopulate the earth after the Flood waters receded. Noah, the patriarchal head of this chosen family, the man who "found grace in the eyes of the LORD" (Genesis 6:8), was commanded to build a massive ark. This ark (a.k.a. Noah's Ark) was the implement of their salvation. In the aftermath, eight human survivors disembarked from the ark. These eight were all that remained of the human race: Noah, his wife, their three sons, and their sons' three wives.

The Flood - Universal Tradition
According to the Bible, every human to have lived since the Flood is a direct descendent of Noah's small remnant. It logically follows that despite the relative isolation of the various cultures that have thrived since the Flood, because every culture descended directly from the flood's survivors, traditions of this traumatic event ought to be abundant and universal, having been passed down generation to generation. Indeed, Flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Literally hundreds of Flood traditions have been preserved throughout the world, abounding in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and the Americas. Collectively, these Flood traditions serve to corroborate the Bible's Genesis Flood account. These surviving Flood traditions include two of the oldest known stories to have survived the ravishment of time's passage: China's "Hihking Classic" and Babylon's "Epic of Gilgamesh." These Flood traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative isolation of the cultures, the length of time since the Flood, and the human tendency to embellish and exaggerate stories over time.

The Flood - Physical Evidences
The Flood "myth" is not just some ancient allegory meant to teach us about God's judgment on sin. The Flood was a real historical event and earth's crust bears witness to this in many compelling ways. Consider the fossil record: billions of dead things buried in sedimentation ("laid-down-by-water rock") found all over the earth. Geologist Dr. John Morris explains, "Sedimentary rocks, by definition, are laid down as sediments by moving fluids, are made up of pieces of rock or other material which existed somewhere else, and were eroded or dissolved and redeposited in their present location." [1] Over 70% of the earth's surface rock is sedimentary rock (the rest of earth's surface rock is volcanic igneous and metamorphic rock). In these sedimentary rock layers, geologists find some very odd features. For example, fossilized trees buried at all angles, upside-down and right-side-up, often passing through multiple rock layers, obviously the result of a marine cataclysm. These "polystrate" fossils (poly, meaning more than one; strate, meaning rock layer) are a worldwide phenomenon.

Consider the ratios of dead things we find buried in this sedimentary rock: "95% of all fossils are marine invertebrates, particularly shellfish. Of the remaining 5%, 95% are algae and plant fossils (4.74%). 95% of the remaining 0.25% consists of the other invertebrates, including insects (0.2375%). The remaining 0.0125% includes all vertebrates, mostly fish. 95% of the few land vertebrates consist of less than one bone. (For example, only about 1,200 dinosaur skeletons have been found.)" [2]

Also consider the abundant fossil remains of marine life found atop every mountain range in the world. For example, clusters of hundreds of gigantic (300kg/650lbs) oysters found atop the Andes Mountains in South America. ......................................

http://www.earthage.org/floodevidences/floodevid.htm Scientific Evidence for a Worldwide Flood!!
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
ThisShouldMakeSense said:
Do you believe that the flood as described in the bible actually happened? Or was it as some believe a more localised flood, rather than global. or do you beleive that it's just a myth and may never have happened at all?
Yes, I believe the flood actually happened and that it was global, and that in the last days scoffers would come denying the flood as Peter said.
 

Fatmop

Active Member
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG201.html

  1. Flood myths are widespread, but they are not all the same myth. They differ in many important aspects, including
    • reasons for the flood. (Most do not give a reason.)
    • who survived. (Almost none have only a family of eight surviving.)
    • what they took with them. (Very few saved samples of all life.)
    • how they survived. (In about half the myths, people escaped to high ground; some flood myths have no survivors.)
    • what they did afterwards. (Few feature any kind of sacrifice after the flood.)
    If the world's flood myths arose from a common source, then we would expect evidence of common descent. An analysis of their similarities and differences should show either a branching tree such as the evolutionary tree of life, or, if the original biblical myth was preserved unchanged, the differences should be greater the further one gets from Babylon. Neither pattern matches the evidence. Flood myths are best explained by repeated independent origins with some local spread and some spread by missionaries. The biblical flood myth in particular has close parallels only to other myths from the same region, with which it probably shares a common source, and to versions spread to other cultures by missionaries (Isaak 2002).
  2. Flood myths are likely common because floods are common; the commonness of the myth in no way implies a global flood. Myths about snakes are even more common than myths about floods, but that does not mean there was once one snake surrounding the entire earth.
 

Fatmop

Active Member
Oh, those 'scoffers.' Those stupid 'scoffers' with their 'scientific evidence' and their 'geology' and their 'paleontology.' They'll all go straight to hell.
 

Fatmop

Active Member
Deep_MindQuest:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH550.html

  1. Varves within the geologic column show seasonal layers over many, many years. In many cases, such as the Green River formation, these layers are too fine to have settled out in less than several weeks per layer. Varves in New England show evidence of climate change 17,500 to 13,500 years ago, which matches climate patterns in other parts of the world (Rittenour et al. 2000). These layers prove that the geological record was not produced in just one event.
  2. There are many different kinds of surface features preserved in the middle of the geological column. These features include soils, mud cracks, evaporite deposits, footprints, raindrop impressions, meteor craters, worm burrows, wind-blown sediments, stream channels, and many others. For example:
    • The Loess Plateau in China has a layer of loess more than 300 m thick. Loess is wind-blown sediment that would not occur during a global flood. The Loess Plateau occurs around the downwind edges of the Ordos Desert, its source of sediments, and the grain size of the loess decreases the further one gets from the desert (Vandenberghe et al. 1997).
    • The Loess Plateau includes paleosols within it. These are buried fossil soils, some of which would require tens of thousands of years to form (Kukla and An 1989; Liu et al. 1985).
See also:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH561_1.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH561_2.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH561_3.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH561_4.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH570.html
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
ThisShouldMakeSense said:
Do you believe that the flood as described in the bible actually happened? Or was it as some believe a more localised flood, rather than global. or do you beleive that it's just a myth and may never have happened at all?
I believe that a flood took place. I believe that, from Noah's perspective, it was as he described it. But I don't believe Noah's perspective was entirely accurate.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
I believe that a flood took place. I believe that, from Noah's perspective, it was as he described it. But I don't believe Noah's perspective was entirely accurate.
That's about it, Katz. To Noah, the whole world was flooded.

Sometime between 20,000 and 12,000 BCE the region of the Caspian and Black Sea basins were catastrophically flooded. The memory of that even among the peoples of the late neolithic cultures gave birth to the flood story in all the cultures of the old world - Gilgamesh, Noah - all of them.

Regards,
Scott
 
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