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Do you believe that the flood actually happened

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Just in case the "10's of cm/day" doesn't seem pertinent, 10's of cm/day can be reasonably taken as some number between 10cm/day and 100cm/day, so let's pick one - say 60 cm/day. Mt. Ararat (for example) is roughly 5,165 meters above sea level. With these values, we should be able to get our Ark to safety in slightly under 24 years. I sure hope those animals don't breed too often!
     
  2. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    http://www.libertygospeltracts.com/question/prequest/flood.htm



    Let's get back to the point. I claim that the biblical story of Noah's flood is utterly impossible, largely inconsistant with reality, and likely is the culmination of a series of exaggerations based upon a real flood. I have backed up this claim with logic. I would like to see this logic refuted, if you have the ability.

    I'm willing to believe in this biblical story as fact, if you can prove it's factual basis. If you cannot do that, I am willing to believe in it's possible factual basis, if you can prove to me that it was a possibility.

    First off, explain to me how the ecosystem was destroyed (remember, all plants are gone except phyto-plankton). Explain how freshwater still exists. Explain the genetic diversity that exists within each individual species, and contrast that with how many generations you can go through inbreeding the same family (you won't get far). Explain how the ark could possibly have even held the elephants. If you do that, eaxplain the rhinos and hippos next. Explain what happened to amphibians, who needed both water and land to survive. Explain how Noah gathered the animals from the various continents, especially in only seven days.

    Good luck.
     
  3. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Okay, I guess the key word in 7:24 is prevailed. After 150 days the water started to subside according to the account. Got it. You're right.
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It's amazing that we seem enamored with holding God to physical laws. What about "super-natural" don't you understand? A miracle that can be explained is no longer a miracle. Just because YOU can't control nature does not mean that God is so limited.

    On another note, there are some who substitue a contrived bombastic style as wit or as a semi-logical argument... in reality it's just rude and completely obscures the real issues. Being a cyber bully does not constitute being right. You don't make your case better by belittling others. State your point and leave the commentary about how "stoopid" you think the other side is to yourself.
     
  5. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Hi, I'm new to this forum.

    I believe the flood happened exactly as Genesis describes it. While I don't have any evidance, besides the Bible, which apparently isn't considered solid evidence, no one else has any evidence that the Flood never happened. While I trust that the Bible is true, otherwise it is impossible to prove whether the Flood happened or not.
     
  6. almifkhar

    almifkhar Active Member

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    well science says it happened. the ancients from all over the globe said it happened. the people who have been mapping our dna claim that something happened long ago that wiped out lots and lots of people and their idea to this is that our dna should be more diverse than it is. there are still lots of cities and temples under water that are very ancient. so with this all said i think we can call it a fact that a deludge did happen in our past.
     
  7. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Unlike some, I require proof to believe in something, and this proof must be beyond "Because the Bible says it happened". Sure, anyone can say that it happened, and hen questioned about the logic of the situation, say that "God is not constrained by physics". But then I could argue that yesterday, a monkey somehow reached my town, lifted my house, and moved me to the Bahamas. When questioned about the logic behind my argument, I'll say that the monkey was not constrained by physics. This makes my monkey argument as valid as your God argument.

    Are you calling me a cyber bully? I have not meant to offend, in any way. If I have inadvertantly offended someone, please, point out the post in question, and I will rectify the matter as swiftly as I am able to.

    You don't need to prove a negative, only a positive.

    No, science does not.

    No, they did not.

    This is true. It is called the Togo bottleneck, and was caused by a massive volcano eruption, causing the human population of Earth to dwindle to less than 1000. Not a flood, however. And besides this, it occured over 100,000 years in the past.

    While there may be some, there are most certainly not "lots".
     
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  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Druidus,

    FIrst off... you have never been a cyber bully. But some comments by others are far more brusque then they need to be.

    As for "proof"... there are SEVERAL accounts of this flood. That it is cross cultural, it appears that it DID happen. There is much confusion as to the extent, and even the origin, but there are at least three independent accounts of a huge flood.

    The FIRST point was that it is impossible to cram the supernatural in with the merely extreme. Of course the flood was impossible... it was from God.
     
  9. Mr Spinkles

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    But then, surely you must see why someone who does not have the a priori belief that the Bible is divinely inspired/historical regards such claims as less than convincing. They are merely holding the Bible to the same standards of evidence as you would hold Native American, Hindu, Norse or Greek mythology. "Of course it's impossible to turn someone to stone merely by looking at them...it was from Medusa." That may work for people who have already decided they are believers in Greek mythology, but for the rest of us it's just not very convincing.
     
  10. Kotaro

    Kotaro Member

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    well I guess I believe in this great flood story. The Sumerians did have the oldest recordings of its happenings, and afterwords almost every other culture wrote about it, including the Jews. These people all seemed to think the event happened. So yeah I believe there was some kind of massive flood over most, if not all the earth. I'm not saying it's completely true though, it's just a belief :)
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, there is not. There are "SEVERAL" accounts of flood lore and only one reason to assert that they referred to the same event, that being to justify the biblical flood narrative. To claim these as proof is naivete or deceit.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    When was the flood?
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Now Deut...

    Why do you almost always have to ascribe negative motives to almost everyone who disagrees with you?

    This does nothing to promote discussion and is what I was referring to as being a "cyber bully". Disagreeing with you does not automatically make someone a cretin, bigot, idiot, fool, naive, deceitful, arrogant... and the list can go on. This is merely a way to flame people without being completely honest about it. I personally find it disgusting and refuse to be baited by it or to participate in it. EEWRED is not ignoring your posts due to being overwhelmed by your logic, but he does not feel that he needs to weather your bombastic style of debate. No one should!

    So no, my belief and theories about the flood are not driven by my naivete or my deceitfulness, though I would readily admit to being guilty of both. My conclusions about this are no more erroneous than yours and possibly less so.

    Floods were common and still are. However, world event floods are not and they seem to have been experienced by more than a couple of cultures. You may claim (and you have) that one culture stole the idea from another. Great concept, unless the world event flood actually happened. We don't claim that one paper copied another in their reporting of the WTC disaster. No, there were numerous independent reports with facts that were sometimes in agreement and sometimes at odds with the other. They were all witnesses to the event. So it would be with a world event flood.

    The only "proof" that you have offered otherwise has been that you simply can not believe that it happened that way. Well, whoop-de-doodle-do! It seems impossible for you. I will ask God to seek your permission for all future miracles and to be sure to not exceed his authority when bending the rules of nature.
     
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  14. jimbob

    jimbob The Celt

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    Actually, there is proof that the flood really did happen. According to dig sites in jeruslam and jericho and the plains of Iran during the beginning of the 20th century (from 1920 to 1950) archeologists discovered a the rsults of a major flood. They found a very advanced civilization that had copper tools and pottery. Then that city was destroyed by a massive amount of water, and on top of that city, a new civilization made it way. But the new civilization was very primitive, thus showing that the people who new the previous knowledge, had deceases, and people had to start over. Also, the salt plain on the plateau of Iran has been acknowledged to have come from a major saltwater flood. The plains are not connected to the ocean or to any of the surrounding salt lakes. It had to have been deposited by a large amount of water. So in conclusion, scientists have said that a flood very possibly happened over a almost all of asia (some say up to russia, and others say only to Mesopotamia) and a great deal of Africa. This is where the Bible collides with fact. The BIble says that it covered the whole world. Science says that much of europe, and the america's never got the flood. Its up to you to make the decision. I personally don't really care what happened, i'm just going with scientific evidence in this case. Sir Leonard Wooley (one of the dudes at the excavation) said that it probably happend about 5,500 B.C. or 4000 B.C. Anyway, thats all the info i got after looking it up. Hope this helps.

    And deut, please don't criticize me, i'm just telling what i know.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    When was the Biblical Flood?
     
  16. jimbob

    jimbob The Celt

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    As i wrote before in my post. Scientists believe that the major flood (could be the biblical flood) happened around 5500B.C. to 4000 B.C.
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I don't think the Bible is as clear about the extent of the flood as some would have you believe. 15 cubits above what? I am not so sure we understand the ancient tongue well enough to say with complete authority. Some say that this was part of the "great melt" of the past ice age.

    I do know that we have found human remains and evidences of camp fires in caves that are over a hundred foot deep off of the coast of Florida. I have no clue how long the rise of the oceans took, but I do believe that God was responsible for that as well.
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    No clue... I don't think we have an accurate understanding of biblical times. Niether do I think that it matters.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, there is no proof of the flood, although there is ample proof of flood disasters throughout the world, including Mesopotamia. In this regard,, I thank you for the Woolley reference. Here is another one ...
    Note the dates, both in your quote and mine. It's good having dates - and rare. All too often those who applaud YHWH's biocide shy away from anything so concrete. There is, however, an interesting exception, that being a remarkably well written article from our friends at answeringenesis.org ...
    The point is, Woolley's work documents a flood, not the flood. In fact, the latter can only be viewed as a repudiation of Woolley. Similarly, to take the Noah narrative as anything other than allegory demands the repudiation of science.
     
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  20. jimbob

    jimbob The Celt

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    I didn't mean to imply the Biblical flood. I was talking of THE FLOOD as in the BIG ONE. I am sorry for not writing that to more understandable terms. Thank you for correcting me deut, you always are able to do that:D

    Thanks for the dating. I was using dates that i had found, but i wasn't sure. I suppose there is some speculation as to when it occured, but i'll go with your facts, since i know you are a better researcher than i am.
     
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