1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Do you believe that Jesus is the Word?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, May 12, 2018.

Tags:
  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    The question is, do you believe that Jesus is the Word?


    If so, how is Jesus not God?
     
    #1 Disciple of Jesus, May 12, 2018
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Pyrphóros ⚡ Lux Aeterna
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    26,182
    Ratings:
    +12,126
    Religion:
    Olympianism (Greco-Roman polytheism) / Left-Hand Path
    Yes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    1,979
    Ratings:
    +667
    Religion:
    seeking
    Bible says the Word was with God and the Word was God. Later the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men. This was Jesus. So Jesus is the Word and also God.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,072
    Ratings:
    +477
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Yes He is and the Word is God as John 1:1 says and 1 John 5:7 also shows this. Although many people now believe 1 John 5:7 is interpolation I do not believe that myself.
     
  5. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    19,389
    Ratings:
    +6,921
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    No.

    Bird is the word.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  6. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    5,918
    Ratings:
    +1,012
    I believe Jesus is the Word and Jesus is God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    24,209
    Ratings:
    +8,751
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Here are the common definitions of "word."

    word
    wərd/
    noun
    noun: word; plural noun: words
    1. 1.a single distinct meaningful element of speech or writing, used with others (or sometimes alone) to form a sentence and typically shown with a space on either side when written or printed.
      synonyms: term, name, expression, designation, locution, vocable;
    verb
    verb: word; 3rd person present: words; past tense: worded; past participle: worded; gerund or present participle: wording
    1.choose and use particular words in order to say or write (something).
    "he words his request in a particularly ironic way"

    Obviously this isn't what you mean by "Word," so just what is it? What is the definition of "Word"?

    .
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    I believe that 'word', means the Creator aspect. In the New Testament, it is said, that creation is through Jesus, and by Jesus. This would seem to mean that Jesus is part of that Creator aspect.

    In John 1:14
    The text reads that the Word became flesh, with subsequent description.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    47,966
    Ratings:
    +15,187
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I believe there was probably a tribal shaman who dared to oppose Rome and was executed who inspired the Jesus character, but he was not a word, a messiah, prophet, god, or anything sacred.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    24,209
    Ratings:
    +8,751
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    And what would the creator part or feature consist of? Something that Jesus would be identical to?

    .


     
  11. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    I believe so, yes.
     
  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    24,209
    Ratings:
    +8,751
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    So what would that be? Or are you saying that Jesus is responsible for creating everything, such as the universe, the Earth, evil, and life?

    .
     
  13. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544

    / evil is a freewill issue


    Other than that, yes, the universe, so forth.
     
    #13 Disciple of Jesus, May 13, 2018
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    6,505
    Ratings:
    +1,559
    Religion:
    Øneness
    The fake Gospel of John made this up, which is stupid as Logos as a Greek concept, is that the whole of reality is the Logos, not just one person or just one book. :rolleyes:

    Everything in this reality is the Words from the CPU; so that makes us all inside God (Panentheism).
    Because God is beyond reality, it is the Source of it, like a CPU; thus we don't say everything inside a computer game is the CPU, as that would be silly.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #14 wizanda, May 13, 2018
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    And you believe this because...
     
  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    6,505
    Ratings:
    +1,559
    Religion:
    Øneness
    I don't do beliefs, this is based on the evidence...

    We can examine what the Greeks thought about Logos, and where that idea came from...

    Then we can examine the usage of the term "the Word" in the Tanakh, and understand how they've interrelated the ideas.

    The Word is the idea that everything came from God, and that Word is Logical... Thus they equated that these were equal concepts.

    Having had a NDE seen the CPU myself; yet can cross reference ideas from multiple religious sources to show there is One God Most High/Brahman.

    Even science is questioning the ideas we're inside a simulated reality, which then indicates there is one CPU.

    Thus when Michio Kaku says, "the Mind of God is like cosmic music, resonating throughout 11 dimensional hyperspace"...

    That is similar to saying Brahma (To Be) breathed out Om, as a poem which created reality or YHVH (Lord To Be) spoke the Word, which created reality...

    It is all just mathematical code, then seen as a form of language by us, which is what a CPU does inside a computer system.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    3,409
    Ratings:
    +2,040
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    What Word might Jesus be, exactly?
    Jesus is not God because Jesus says many many times that he's not God. For example:

    Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;"

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

    Hard to make it plainer, unless you think he was lying.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  18. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,481
    Ratings:
    +7,288
    Religion:
    none
    Logos isn't a term that translates particularly easily.

    See, for example:

    Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator


    Alternatively:

    Logos Life - from Plato to early Christian doctrine

    Logos has traditionally been defined as "word." This translation is misleading for it does not convey the full extent of its meaning. With regards to a "word," it is so in the sense that it is able to convey a meaning. As philosophy evolved, it is from this definition that Logos also developed. Logos became understood as the perceivable meaning of the universe that permeated and governed the natural world. Governing in the sense that it was "that which is rationally ordered, such as 'proportion' in mathematics or what we call 'law' in nature...

    [Socratic] Logos became associated with rational discourse or a verifiable testimony {Phaedr. 61b; Tim. 26e). Socrates believed that the Logos was the internal discourse that took place in a person's mind as he/she spoke. Disregarding this form of reasoning was a misfortune in the mind of Plato {Phaedr. 89d). Logos however, was not able to reveal verifiable knowledge when it came to sensory perception (Theaet. 201c-210d). This form of reasoning was what Plato believed to be a more transcended form of being. The Logos played an important part in trying to discern the "idea of things, and could lead to real knowledge""


    [Stoics] much like Heraclitus, identified the Logos with fire. Unlike his predecessor, Zeno expanded this concept to the point that the Logos acted as the fundamental element that pervaded all aspects of the universe and controlled its functions...The Logos was eventually likened to both God and nature since they were made of one essence.47 Consequently, the Logos could manifest itself in various ways throughout nature. But the Logos could only be traced to humans since they were the only creatures with a reasoning capability. Human rationality was innate for it was a marker of the imbedded reason that could be found in all areas of existence. Therefore, humankind's discernment was closely related to the relative order of nature. This school of thought eventually separated the Logos from the material world; the Logos became an aspect of the human soul...

    Middle Platonism was the form of Platonism that developed between the First Century B.C.E. and the Third Century C.E. Concerning the Logos, Middle Platonism maintained a definition similar to that of Socrates and Plato. It differed on a cosmological level however. Unlike Stoics, Middle Platonists insisted on an immaterial realm. This realm, they believed, was made up of two divine realities. The first was the transcendent realm relative to the God(s). The second was an intermedial level between that realm and the natural world. It was occupied by a demiurgic figure who directed the order of the universe.
    (from The Johannine Jesus as the interpretive basis for the Johannine logos in light of Philo's logos)

    and:

    Following the Christian tradition of identifying pre-existing Christ with Wisdom and Logos, Origenes argues that „the first-born before all creation”- pre-existing Christ - involves in Himself throughout the intelligible world of the Father`s reasons as the Father`s Logos - almost in the same way that Plato's Demiurge contained ideas in his mind: "It may be called the Son as Word, because He transmits the secrets hidden in the Father, who is in a way intelligence (nous) whose word (logos) is the Son. For as in our case, a word is a transmitter (angelos) of ideas from mind, so the Word of God, who knew the Father, reveals to us the Father that He knew”
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  19. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544

    This includes Jesus. JESUS is the Lord.

    What Bible are you reading? Jesus says, no man, here.

    Context..it means, why did you doubt me, now you are calling me good, /which only God is.

    The father 'sent' Jesus, in John 8:58 Jesus proceeds to call Himself JHVH, which is the Deity aspect of His Godhood.

    John 10:30 , then proceeds to say that He and the father are one. Do y9u like metaphor? I don't:D

    Yes, He is telling them to believe in Him. How this infers that Jesus is not God, I have no idea.

    Again, Father, son, holy Spirit. Not sure if you are unaware of that, or not.

    Yes, He is ascending to His Father. It seems you are missing the inference here.​

    Ie you believe Scripture, or at least your interpretation of it..:D
     
    #19 Disciple of Jesus, May 13, 2018
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  20. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,643
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    John 17:5

    Jesus pre-exists His human incarnation, and puts Himself with the Father

    John 17:11

    Jesus says that He and the Father are one, means Godhood

    John 17:16

    More of equating His deific nature in the Godhood

    John 17:21

    Jesus literally equates His oneness with the Father, and separates Himself from people, ie He is God, He is Deific, and He is one with the Father.
     
    #20 Disciple of Jesus, May 13, 2018
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 1
Loading...