Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
How do you tell the difference, between a real spirit and some other rare unexplained phenomenon? how do you scientifically validate such an event
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Do You Believe in Ghosts and Spirits?
- Thread starter TheScholar
- Start date
How do you tell the difference, between a real spirit and some other rare unexplained phenomenon? how do you scientifically validate such an event
My thought is that faced with things that seem antithetical to our common sense worldview we create theories of what is going on. These theories consider all unusual phenomena and the input of those many who claim experience of that which is beyond our mundane physical. Things can not be determined with the rigor of physical science but I still think explanations given by the best in these fields are on the right track and are the best theories out there.
Poltergeists by the way seem to have something to do with the psychic energy from emotionally troubled individuals (most commonly teenaged girls).
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Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
There are no theories concerning anything supernatural, if you are using the word theory under the scientific definition. There is conjecture, unsupported claims, and perhaps something that could rise to the level of a hypothesis. But a theory....no.
It would be difficult, as genuinely supernatural phenomena by definition defy natural explanation. All natural explanations should first be ruled out.
Sorry, that just reads as wordplay and doesn't address the heart of the matter.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Defining terms is very important. Are you saying that you think all those words mean the same thing? Do you think a person should use the word theory when they are only making unsubstantiated claims?
Well I am not trying to do science here with all the appropriate terminology. I am determining my spiritual view of the universe by considering all evidence and argumentation from all sides and by that objectively determining what is the most reasonable position out there. From that, I believe in ghosts.
You can't scientifically validate it since the experience is purely subjective.
For example, I moved into a new apartment and when I walked into the walk-in closet it became very cold and I immediately became deeply depressed. I didn't even bother turning around, I walked out backwards, closed the door and never put anything in there.
I was in an empty Amtrak commuter car. Absolutely no one around. Someone kissed me on my cheek. I looked around and the train car was still empty. The ghost was thanking me for having a priest release her from being Earth bound. If you have ever had someone kiss you on the cheek - that is exactly what it felt like.
While sleeping I felt a presence in the room. I open my eyes and see it's a cousin that I hadn't seen in years. The next day I call my mom and she tells me that he had passed away the previous day.
My fiance died and that very night I felt a pressure on my chest every time I went to sleep in bed. I felt that presence every night until I moved out 15 years later.
I have many more such experiences. Science won't be able to tell me that it was all in my mind, that I hallucinated them all.
BTW, if a succubus ever makes love to you in a dream you will definitely know it - it will feel more real than the actual sexual experience! I seriously doubt that science or any gadget will ever be able to capture an image of that. You won't need to scientifically validate it - you will know it to be real - no belief will be necessary, you just will know.
Dhyana said:
Right. Keep telling yourself that. Just like no one will be able to convince you otherwise, you, nor anyone else, will be able to convince me that what I experienced wasn't real. I know the truth, since my first experience was when I was about 10 years old, before my mind became bombarded with ghost stories.
But here's one for you: my mom dreamt ("dreamed" just doesn't sound right) that someone told her to buy a piece of property, and under a certain tree was hidden a lot of money. My mom dismissed it as nonsense while talking to my cousin. My cousin went and bought the property and dug up under the tree as my mother had said. He found over $10,000 buried in the dirt. True story.
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Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Well, I know there is nothing scientific in the methodology people use to believe in ghots. It is bases solely on
Why did he buy the property???
I dreamed I was eating a giant marshmallow, and when I woke up my pillow was gone.....true story...
How do you study spontaneous phenomena with scientific methodology?
PBS is now running "American Comandante: American Experience," the story of William Morgan. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/comandante/
Castro had him arrested and had his wife put under house arrest. She says that at 9:30 at night she sees her husband, he kisses her. Next day she was informed that he had been executed the day before.
Castro had him arrested and had his wife put under house arrest. She says that at 9:30 at night she sees her husband, he kisses her. Next day she was informed that he had been executed the day before.
Really? If you can't tell the truth stop being a ****; you're not doing your kind any favors, all you're doing is re-enforcing the stereotype of the immature skeptic.
I know this post is old, but this is the thing I needed to answer with my experience.
Ok, so what is a real experience of a spirit or ghost like?
Welp, I have experienced them a few ways....
1) As a physically indistinguishable "looks like a video" non-interactive type being. (Exceedingly rare.)
2) As an interactive "mental image"... (this is the most common way for them to visually appear...) Generally, it will feel like you see them "in your head"... Almost like you are imagining them... without your control...
3) Non-verbal emotion streams
4) Pure thought streams... Telepathic, and no other appearance.
5) Physical sounds. (Or, at least they seem that way... Very rare as well.. )
Cameras only have a chance to detect the first case, and that's assuming that it's not just an extreme case of #2 (which it probably is)... The spiritual hardware the human has isn't replicated by any machine thus, in my experience, machines would be a terrible way to experience them. This is pretty comparable to the way we discovered atoms and how they work without ever seeing them other than to observe certain behaviors and infer the rest. In essence, we are each spirits we just happen to possess a body here -- thus we are not completely unlike them in many ways..
It makes sense if we could use these faculties we should be able to interact directly.Some of the nicer spirits I know simply are considerate of the humans around them and stay in mode 3 or 4. What would a camera tell you of them?
Mostly, they don't want to frighten you.... If you aren't paying attention this could come across to you as rambling thoughts or feelings in your head... Most people would miss it... Just think they are daydreaming or whatever... For every spirit that engages in 1 or 2 there are probably hundreds engaged in methods 3 and 4. It's easier for them to communicate with these two... and usually that's what happens...Anyway, I figure I'd share feedback from a perspective of someone who is engaged with these things. I hope it helps others to understand.
I'm not sure a camera would ever pick up any of these things -- I think they are mostly something only we can pick up.
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cambridge79
Active Member
no i don't. Actually no solid evidences have been presented to me to make me think this ghosts thing is no more than a myth. The modern history of parapsicology for example from Madame Blawansky and the fox sisters to rosemarie althea and so on is a continuum of charlatans that have been proved being fraud multiple times.
What if you had an undeniable experience?
cambridge79
Active Member
May i point to the fact that your question does not actually make sense.
If it's undeniable by definition I couldn't deny it.
And if I can deny it than it's not undeniable.
So the way you put your question you basically already decided my answer
But I think the problem is what we would consider undeniable. For you maybe just not finding your keys where you think you left them could mean the presence of a ghost.
To me I have to see at least something like a person walking right trough a wall.
But the question was intended to be how would you incorporate this into your worldview?
cambridge79
Active Member
the problem is i find such an experience highly unlikely to happen, so i don't plan in advance how to act in such a situation. To me ghosts are like vampires or werewolves, or swamp thing, or the smurfs, just a product of our fantasy. it's like if i asked you, what would you do if a transformer robot knocked at your door and how your life would be affected.
You may come up with a fictional story at that point like "i would invite him in, and than we would save the world togheter" but you can't really give me a real answer cause you know something similiar will never happen.
but if i was to find myself in a situation that may possibly involve a ghost, i would try to make sure i can exclude every other possible natural explanation, than i would try to document the experience, like with a witness or maybe taking pictures or a video with my smartphone in order to make sure i'm not hallucinating. I would possibly try to interact with "the thing".
and if i wasn't able to come up with a rational explanation, well what exactly should change in my life? I mean, a ghost will be the proof of what exactly? that an afterlife exists? maybe, but still i would have no clue about what kind of afterlife. For example, christianity tells us about heaven and hell, never mention errand ghosts therefore it may be a proof that christian narrative is false. So i would not jump on the first religious train i can find only because i got scared. In the end i think my life would change very little. I would just believe they exist but i still wouldn't know what they are, what they want and why they're there. In the end i would only be estremely disappointed cause i would not probably be able to repeat the experience again.
Now you may think my mind is not open to that but in fact i've been engaged numerous times on the internet with people who said to me "i can prove you ghosts exists, there's a cimitery here, or a castle there, or a house there that is infested" and i said to them "well, you pay me the airplane ticket and the hotel and i will come and check, if you can convince me and i can't come up with a possible alternative explanation, i will pay you back double the price" but nobody ever accepted my proposal
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I do not claim proof of anything but I believe ghosts exist beyond all reasonable doubt from the less dramatic things I have experienced to the more dramatic things people I know have experienced, to the strong cases of innumerable collected stories. As an avid student of the paranormal I am well aware of all the skeptical explanations but I objectively do not find them anywhere near sufficient to explain the body of experiences. This is just my own objective judgement.