Do you believe in Caste-System ?

[Madhuri]

Fortunately I (and you too I presume) encounter very few people who are caste focused or caste obsessed.

That's true. I haven't perceived much care about caste from any of my many Indian Hindu friends.

 

[George-ananda]

A brahmin may be furthest from moksha because his duties may be difficult to adhere to. A brahmin cannot harbour desire or lust and should work only for welfare of all, generally as a teacher/priest. OTOH, a so called lowly Shudra may be very near to Moksha, because his duties have no potential for mistake.

WHY? are some born Brahmin and some born Shudra? Does it have to do with the predominance of a guna in the soul's nature?

 

[oldbadger]

I'm actually of a low-caste background, believe it or not. Historically, I'd be of the varna known as Shudra (though one must not confuse varna with jati, as RF admin Madhuri descriptively put it earlier). The only reason I don't talk about it is because the last time I did on a forum having to do with religion, numerous proselytizers started "preaching the Word" to me. I felt it to be quite arrogant and impolite, as if I were a poached animal limping after a deadly encounter with hunters who paraded after me as if I was in "need of saving".

Thankyou for such an interesting post.
Your mention of proselytisers' arrogance caught my attention.... on a past thread I noticed how upset some members (of your religion, I think) have been by JW visits to their homes. So there might be a connection there.... somewhere.
Interesting.

The caste 'system' seems to cause some very bad injustices, and many oppressed people would do away with it. I am constantly amazed at the excuses humans make for such wicked mistreatment of others.

 

[LuisDantas]

WHY? are some born Brahmin and some born Shudra?

In the sense that some societies mark them as such from birth, yes, certainly.

Does it have to do with the predominance of a guna in the soul's nature?

How could anyone show evidence either way? It is even possible to test for the existence, much less composition, of a soul?

 

[oldbadger]

According to this... BBC News - The Great British class calculator: What class are you? I wonder what class you are. I did the survey and got working class.

Thankyou for the question.

You tell me my class.......... ? I think I am working class.
I am a carpet cleaner, which involves dirty work and hard labour. The van I drive is old and tatty, and much of the time I am on my hand and knees, carrying out spot removal prior to using the big noisy machine.

My wife grew up in the back streets of Northfleet, Gravesend and went to work at Woolworths, but she now works as a receptionist at a veterinary surgery.

We live in a tiny bungalow, with a lounge that is much smaller than most people's kitchens..... 7' x 12'. Although my wife has a little car, I have a bicycle.

Can we say I am working class?

But how does this help you? Our Equality Act will help to lay the ground for the caste system to be wiped out here. It is in the far east that the serious injustices exist.

 

[oldbadger]

Any caste system whether it is based on religion or culture is a violation of the basic human right to self-determination. There is no getting around that.

Of course...... but folks will try and find levels, and do want (so badly) to climb them, looking down with contempt and up with sycophantic hope.

There was a thread about 'what is your IQ' some time ago........ it was so sad to read ............. Some would like an IQ class, others a financial class, others a birth class..... humanity needs to wake up....

 

[oldbadger]

I agree fully. The Varna Asrama dharma teaches that one's mental nature and one's actions determine one's station.

..... one's station. That is the problem. The creation of station! ))
There is no need for station. It destroys humility, promotes injustice, damages souls, causes wars etc..... needs to be kept down or destroyed.

 

[oldbadger]

I agree, but don't limit it to caste .. (not suggesting you are) Don't forget the planet recently had apartheid, slavery, and still has ethnic cleansing here and there. All these were/are just as atrocious as caste.

...... yes. Now let's get rid of them all.

 

[atanu]

There have been many good responses on this thread regarding Caste System. This issue has been well settled, yet for some reason is brought up again and again.

I just have a question. Your input would be nice.

Sudra means "one who serves", meaning one who serves the other 3 classes. The question is if a person (we'll call him John) who is very intelligent and expert in scriptures helps a Guru (who is a Brahmin) teach his disciples, would he be considered a Sudra or a Brahmin? He is a Brahmin because he is very intelligent and scholarly. He is also a Sudra because he is serving a Brahmin (Guru). So, is he a Sudra, Brahmin, or both?

Regards

It's complicated, isn't it? Are you assuming the Guru would be a Brahmin, or are you saying in this case he happens to be a Brahmin? Gurus can come from all castes. Ramakrishna was a Brahmin, but Vivekenanda was a kshataya.

Brahmins really serve the other castes just by maintaining the temples, so does this make them shudras too? (See, it's complicated.)

It is a good question. Duty of all Varna-s is supposed to be service only. The modes are different due to guna predominance. A brahmin by nature is a student and a teacher. A khastra by nature is ambitious ruler of others. A vaishya is perfectly attuned to business. A shudra is supposed to be tamasic, which approximately means lethargic.

The duties prescribed for each caste is service and service only, keeping in view the natural mental bent.

.....

I know in India and elsewhere, children are under immense pressure to become engineer or doctor. Parents kill all aspirations of children and force them to these professions only. In recent time, in India, there is no taker for pure science and no taker for humanities.

Is it freedom? People are fooling themselves. Parents and children are in a vice trap. Irrespective of natural inclination, one has to by hook and crook, become an engineer or a doctor or similar something.

Varna system, OTOH, recognises a person's natural inclination, deducing it through the concepts of Guna, Karma, and Rebirth and then adds a component of service to the tasks prescribed.

........

There is a misinterpretation of the Varna dharma and that too is natural.

But, i request readers here to at least differentiate the Varna, which means VEIL, from Casteism, which is actually an effect of that Veil.

 

[s2a]

Do you believe that some humans have more human-rights than others due to their Caste ?

If No, Than its Okay.
If Yes, Than why ?

Believe?

No.

Maybe you have something to change my mind?

 

[Riverwolf]

No, I don't.

 

[Viker]

Nope. I don't support a caste system. No person deserves more rights than another. Rights are inalienable. However, privileges are not rights. Privileges should be treated as if they are earnings.

 

[atanu]

WHY? are some born Brahmin and some born Shudra? Does it have to do with the predominance of a guna in the soul's nature?

Certain things are intrinsic to understanding of Hindu dharma. In Hindu dharma, Guna (quality of mind) and Karma (works) determine everything about a jiva ( living soul), including its rebirth.

For example, it is said in Gita that a person's predominant thoughts at his last moments determine his next body and station.

It is further said in Gita, that for a yogi who has lived a pure life, God ensures a birth in an environment that will be conducive for his sadhana.

So we can see a dynamic connection between Guna-Karma-Birth.

But a birth ensures nothing. A birth in a sattwik environment, among sadhus, is challenging. A small slip can cause fall.

 

[atanu]

WHY? are some born Brahmin and some born Shudra? Does it have to do with the predominance of a guna in the soul's nature?

Not in soul's intrinsic nature. No. All Souls are pure .. Brahman.

Varna is the veil of mind, created due to conditioned nature of mind (guna preponderance) and the works.

Varna hides the pure untaintable nature of Souls.

 

[oldbadger]

To be fair, it is probably too much to expect of actual people to simply accept that there are those born into privilege and there are those who are all but certain never to have much of a shot into it.

There's nothing in it with any value..... all these people rushing, pushing, shoving and hoping.... to reach a place where there is nothing for them. Sad

We keep hoping to find our invitation into the club just around the corner, to the point of intentionally refusing to think about how unlikely that may be.

We.....? OK.... most people, possibly. What are wasted journey, though..!

It is just all too human.

I meet all classes ..... all the time..... and I find that contentment and peace are scattered very thinly through all levels of intellect, wealth, property, power, influence and fame. Ergo, these conditions are imposts, imprisoning souls.

 

[oldbadger]

Show me one single war that so called Varna ridden Hindus have caused.

If Hindu has not caused injustice and strife, then it will thrive..... but if it has, then it will surely suffer.

And then count wars in so called egalitarian societies. Count wars and atrocities happening all through the world now. How many of then have been caused by Varna Ashrama dharma?

What has this to do with rape victims being turned away by police because they are unworthy of justice through their caste?
Keep to the point..... yes?

Varna Ashrama dharma is recognition of three kinds of mental modes: pure, ambitous, and lethargic. Varna Ashrama dharma is not a license of oppression.

Then keep it from this debate. We are debating caste systems which need to be reduced or eliminated.

 

[Steventung]

__No.

 

[atanu]

If Hindu has not caused injustice and strife, then it will thrive..... but if it has, then it will surely suffer.

Wow. That is karma talk. So you could not count a single war that the Varna ridden Hindus have caused?

In a much reviled Dharma Shastra, it is taught that the Varna Ashrama dharma in its perfect pristine glory can only exist where black buck roams freely among people. A mind riddled with ambitions for individual self or cruelty or racism will not be able to grasp it with equanimity.

What has this to do with rape victims being turned away by police because they are unworthy of justice through their caste?
Keep to the point..... yes?

What has this to do with Varna teaching? No one supports cruelty and discrimination.

Then keep it from this debate. We are debating caste systems which need to be reduced or eliminated.

Do you differentiate between racism and race? Can you differentiate between caste (varna) and Casteism?

 

[oldbadger]

Wow. That is karma talk. So you could not count a single war that the Varna ridden Hindus have caused?

How big does a conflict have to be to be a war?
Any oppression, injustice, unfairness, imbalance or carelessness caused by caste is a war.... some small, some bigger.

You refer to the Hindus as Varna-ridden, I notice. If Hindus need to consider levels of spirituality amongst themselves, then let them..... the highest will almost certainly be the lowest. But the World could do more to eradicate class and caste from its societies.

In a much reviled Dharma Shastra, it is taught that the Varna Ashrama dharma in its perfect pristine glory can only exist where black buck roams freely among people. A mind riddled with ambitions for individual self or cruelty or racism will not be able to grasp it with equanimity.

Very well...... Then let's leave the selfish to their fates, and talk about the eradication of any injustice, unfairness, imbalance or preference within humanity which is caused by class or caste systems. Start anywhere you like, but let's do so without personal agenda if possible.

What has this to do with Varna teaching? No one supports cruelty and discrimination.

If Varna teaching causes fairness and balance for all then it must be wonderful. But thousands of Hindus seek to end 'caste' injustice!

Do you differentiate between racism and race? Can you differentiate between caste (varna) and Casteism?

What a bad mistake you have made with this question.
Race does not have 'level'! A race is a race.
Caste has 'Level'. May it be done away within societies.

By all means keep your spiritual levels, if levels you must have, but let's balance humanity wherever possible.

 

[atanu]

How big does a conflict have to be to be a war?
Any oppression, injustice, unfairness, imbalance or carelessness caused by caste is a war.... some small, some bigger.

Whatever criteria you may choose, you cannot prove that Varna Ashrama dharma is cause of oppression, war, exploitation etc.

It is always the negativities of mind that is causative of ills of society and for individual. It is ambition to control others that causes all wars.

You refer to the Hindus as Varna-ridden, I notice. If Hindus need to consider levels of spirituality amongst themselves, then let them..... the highest will almost certainly be the lowest. But the World could do more to eradicate class and caste from its societies.

Go ahead. I will support you with all my might. I am against Casteism.

If Varna teaching causes fairness and balance for all then it must be wonderful. But thousands of Hindus seek to end 'caste' injustice!

It is wonderful and so I am not against Varna Ashrama dharma.

What a bad mistake you have made with this question.
Race does not have 'level'! A race is a race.
Caste has 'Level'. May it be done away within societies.

By all means keep your spiritual levels, if levels you must have, but let's balance humanity wherever possible.

Not at all, my friend. There are two flaws in your thinking.

First. The levels of Racism is in mind. Levels of Casteism too is in mind. In Gita, Lord Shri Krishna says that the four Castes are emanation of Him alone, as per functional requirements. Those who are spiritual and revere God cannot discriminate. That would be non dharmic. Isn't it?

And please, I pray humbly, pay attention to the below verse of Gita:

Gita 5.18
vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].

So, a sage is one who is established in his vision of sameness, despite the apparent differences.

Second. Why should it be not okay to brand certain mode of mind and certain mode of activity as not conducive to welfare?

Why should a wise sage who Sees the equal Lord everywhere beneath the apparent divisions and disparities be not extolled? Why should those who cause divisions in society be not censured?

It is you who wants equality and yet you do not appear to have courage to uphold those who do so with their mind and with their acts.

I hope you will peacefully reflect on this matter.