Do You Agree?

[Sheldon]

OK, no more discussion or argument about it from me. If people want to kill (abort) a fetus, that's up to them.

Well done, and best of all you can still be against abortion, and never seek one or help anyone else to. This seems a fair rational approach.

 

[Sheldon]

The shame is that police officers are being killed by criminals

I agree this a shame, but sadly one of the risks the job must entail.

--

they are also being sued and sometimes put in jail when a jury says they didn't do their job right.

Oh I think there would have to be criminal culpability for this to be the case, odd that you start by decrying crime, and now in the very next paragraph you lament at crime being punished?

Are you able to be a cop?

Relevance? I'm not able to be a pilot, does this mean the law should turn a blind eye if a pilot turns up drunk, and on cocaine?

 

[Sheldon]

I did say my discussion with you is more or less over,

Point?

but you really don't want to figure if dropping a bomb on children and pregnant women is ok or not ok, right?

This was an irrelevant and rather facile straw man you introduced, without context or relevance I can't comment.

I deem your loyalties and opinions to be skewed,

In a debate, fascinating. Almost as if debate must necessarily involve opposing viewpoints.

You can say what you want about abortion

I can, but I have been very specific, so your inability to address specifics suggest your rhetoric is losing momentum.

 

[Sheldon]

ASSUME ASSUME ASSUME!!

Yes it does seem to be a constant failing of your rationale.

You are blind to so very much.

Yet you are failing to offer anything to change this, beyond sweeping unevidenced platitudes. Ad hominem is not rational argument, FYI.

OK, baby steps.
Do I exist? Where is your objective evidence?

Where did I claim you existed?

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
So your deity has no name? What objective evidence can you demonstrate this deity exists?

It's your claim and belief, it is for you to support it.

Say we are walking in the desert. It is hot, dry, and you are out of water. We bump into each other and you want to know where you can find water. I say: walk 5 miles west and there is an oasis with plenty of water. You say: It's your claim and belief, it is for you to support it. I say fine. Go thirsty.V

False equivalence fallacy, I know that water exists as an objective fact, and that I need it to survive. You can't even demonstrate that any deity is even possible.

God places knowledge and truth around us all.

That's not evidence, it's an unevidenced claim?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

You have not even attempted to answer the question, what objective evidence can you demonstrate this deity exists?

That much is very clear.

 

[Sheldon]

At this point it looks very much so.

Not at all, paranoia and unevidenced conspiracies are not very compelling arguments. .

I think this should be investigated properly before any judgments. If it was by government, or part of it, I don't believe it will be investigated properly.

That's a poisoning of the well fallacy. Lax gun laws and the inevitable ubiquity of firearms, will inevitably result in increased gun violence and murder. As of course is exactly the case in the US.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not at all, paranoia and unevidenced conspiracies are not very compelling arguments. .



That's a poisoning of the well fallacy. Lax gun laws and the inevitable ubiquity of firearms, will inevitably result in increased gun violence and murder. As of course is exactly the case in the US.

Actually, these crimes will stop only when there is enforcement. And by enforcement, I believe that will come from God. Because men (and by men I mean men and women) cannot agree as to whether and how to control this. Further, to have a society of 'good people,' these would have to agree to what is good. Otherwise, what you see is what you get (have now).

 

[1213]

... Lax gun laws and the inevitable ubiquity of firearms, will inevitably result in increased gun violence and murder. As of course is exactly the case in the US.

By what I know, in Sweden all kind of violence and murder is increasing, even though they don't have guns like in US. Why do you think it is so? I think it refutes your idea.

 

[Bird123]

Yes it does seem to be a constant failing of your rationale.



Yet you are failing to offer anything to change this, beyond sweeping unevidenced platitudes. Ad hominem is not rational argument, FYI.




Where did I claim you existed?

Since you think I don't exist, are you talking to your unicorn?

 

[Sheldon]

Actually, these crimes will stop only when there is enforcement. And by enforcement, I believe that will come from God.

Actually that's just an unevidenced claim, based on an archaic superstitious belief. Paradoxically such crimes have been vastly reduced in multiple countries, by introducing strict gun laws, and reducing the availability of guns.

Because men (and by men I mean men and women) cannot agree as to whether and how to control this.

Control what?

Further, to have a society of 'good people,' these would have to agree to what is good.

Of course, and many secular democracies achieve just this.

 

[Sheldon]

By what I know, in Sweden all kind of violence and murder is increasing, even though they don't have guns like in US. Why do you think it is so? I think it refutes your idea.

Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019

2nd in the world....United States — 37,038

"In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations."

LINK

You can of course keep ignoring the objective facts, it'd even be hilarious if the results weren't more and more tragic for the US. Here's some more then...yes there has been a surge in gun crime in Sweden, now lets compare this surge with the US:


In Sweden gun ownership is Ranked 10th.
In the US they're 1st. 3 times more than Sweden

Intentional homicides globally:
Sweden ranked 41st
US ranked 7th (with 5 times more such homicides than Sweden)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Murder rate per people globally:
Sweden 61st
US 9th (143 times more than Sweden)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rapes (globally)
Sweden 7th
US 1st (14 times more than Sweden)


More HERE....

If of course you have any interest in fact checking your beliefs, as unlikely as that seems now.

 

[Bird123]

You might know water exists somewhere, however you have no clue water exists where I point. It comes down to what you choose to seek.

Since, you have not Discovered that God exists as you have water, is this the reason you do not seek God to find the proof you request? In the search for knowledge, the answers seldom come before the journey is taken.

Since you make no effort to Discover the answers or proof for yourself, one can only conclude God is not what you seek. It seems all your efforts are taken in order to support your Belief that God does not exist, while ignoring any possibility that could lead you to the fact that you are wrong.

Sometimes those who seek find what they are searching for. Can those who do not seek really expect True knowledge and Wisdom to be served up on a silver platter? I think not.

An Action of God: God doesn't just serve up knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to acquire Knowledge. Understand the Actions of God and it will lead to the Understanding of God.

In this time-based causal universe God's actions are all around. How much Understanding is one capable of gaining? It's limitless. On the other hand, with free will, an important part of God's system, each will choose for themselves what they will seek or choose to Discover.

God hides nothing. God's system is clearly in view staring everyone in the face. Knowledge in every area is waiting to be Discovered. So CHOOSE!!! with my Blessings. On the other hand, stop kidding yourself that God or knowledge of God is what you are seeking. At the very least be true to yourself!!!

Yes. your Unicorn!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Actually that's just an unevidenced claim, based on an archaic superstitious belief. Paradoxically such crimes have been vastly reduced in multiple countries, by introducing strict gun laws, and reducing the availability of guns.

All crime, not just murder by guns, will be done away with. That is the reality about what the Bible says. But whether you believe it or not, crime has been around for a long, long, time. And most likely what you believe is evolution so it doesn't matter what happened in the past because it's so-called 'natural.' And crime will continue as is unless a much 'higher force' intervenes.

 

[1213]

...yes there has been a surge in gun crime in Sweden....

And can you think any reason why it is so?

 

[nPeace]

Timothy Fred Kennedy (born September 1, 1979) is a retired American mixed martial artist and current soldier. A professional from 2001 until 2016, he has fought in the UFC, Strikeforce, the WEC, ShoMMA, HDNet Fights, and represented the Chicago Red Bears in the IFL. Kennedy is one of the few fighters to simultaneously serve in the United States Army while also fighting professionally.

@joelr seriously... You are comparing a soldier to those cops? Talk about desperation. That's over the top, with it.

 

[joelr]

Timothy Fred Kennedy (born September 1, 1979) is a retired American mixed martial artist and current soldier. A professional from 2001 until 2016, he has fought in the UFC, Strikeforce, the WEC, ShoMMA, HDNet Fights, and represented the Chicago Red Bears in the IFL. Kennedy is one of the few fighters to simultaneously serve in the United States Army while also fighting professionally.

@joelr seriously... You are comparing a soldier to those cops? Talk about desperation. That's over the top, with it.

Yes, Tim Kennedy, an actual hero and person who understand what is need to be done. That includes an active shooter killing innocent children and includes the people who respond. Kennedy is an expert at tactical response and what should be done. It isn't waiting around for 77 minutes. He doesn't expect police to take crazy risks. When an active shooter is in a school then the opinion of all 3 experts was the police should have gone in. Entering hot rooms with automatic fire is something Tim has done many times. He survived, quick, violent response is the way to end it. I enter this as the opinions of people who understand these situations. It is just luck that he didn't finish off the rest of the classroom.
They are trained but so are the cops. There is FREE tactical training classes 90 minutes from that school any officer could have taken.

The cops had automatic weapons, full gear, everything to do an entry. They were dressed like soldiers even? They could have taken a group, someone. takes charge and says "ok get in a line, we are doing an entry, and you have a dispersion pattern, flash bang, why can't cops do this? They can. That is the job sometimes? They didn't want to do it. Kennedy isn't that different than any tactical cop, he would just do it.

You think it's desperation to ask cops to go save children in an active shooter situation? Even when they have superior numbers, plenty of weapons and gear? It isn't.

 

[SkepticThinker]

And can you think any reason why it is so?

By 2021, gun violence by crime gangs had increased tenfold since the early 1990s.[6]
According to a report published by academic researchers in 2017, shooting incidents with fatal outcomes are about 4 to 5 times as common in Sweden compared to neighbouring countries such as Germany and Norway when taking population size into account. The city with the highest prevalence of shootings was Malmö. The grave violence in the studied period also changed character, from criminal motorcycle gangs to city suburbs.[7][8] Sweden also stands out in having a low resolution rate (25%) for gun homicides compared to Germany and Finland at 90%.[8]

In January 2018, police statistics reported an increase in gun homicides from 8 in 2006 to 43 in 2017.[9] Analysis of 2011–2017 gang warfare showed that there were 1500 incidents involving firearms, 131 people had been killed and 520 injured.[10]

In February 2018, criminologist Jerzy Sarnecki stated in an interview with magazine Forskning & Framsteg that the increasing levels of gun crime in Sweden had taken him, Swedish criminologists in general and police in Sweden by surprise. He characterised the recent developments as "very serious".[11]

A 2018 systematic review of 25 studies on firearm violence in Sweden by criminologist and physician Ardavan Khoshnood, concluded "that even though knives/sharp weapons continue to be the most common MO in a violent crime in Sweden, firearm-related violence is significantly increasing in the country and foremost when discussing gang-related crimes. Moreover, firearm-related homicides and attempted homicides are increasing in the country. The studies also show that a firearm is much more lethal than a knife/sharp weapon... It is principally the three largest cities of Sweden which are affected by the many shootings in recent years."[12]

Gun violence in Sweden - Wikipedia.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, Tim Kennedy, an actual hero and person who understand what is need to be done. That includes an active shooter killing innocent children and includes the people who respond. Kennedy is an expert at tactical response and what should be done. It isn't waiting around for 77 minutes. He doesn't expect police to take crazy risks. When an active shooter is in a school then the opinion of all 3 experts was the police should have gone in. Entering hot rooms with automatic fire is something Tim has done many times. He survived, quick, violent response is the way to end it. I enter this as the opinions of people who understand these situations. It is just luck that he didn't finish off the rest of the classroom.
They are trained but so are the cops. There is FREE tactical training classes 90 minutes from that school any officer could have taken.

The cops had automatic weapons, full gear, everything to do an entry. They were dressed like soldiers even? They could have taken a group, someone. takes charge and says "ok get in a line, we are doing an entry, and you have a dispersion pattern, flash bang, why can't cops do this? They can. That is the job sometimes? They didn't want to do it. Kennedy isn't that different than any tactical cop, he would just do it.

You think it's desperation to ask cops to go save children in an active shooter situation? Even when they have superior numbers, plenty of weapons and gear? It isn't.

Well, like your other posts, where you post your prefered scholarly opinions, and keep posting them page after page, as though those opinions trumps the others, this is no different. So I hope you don't think I will keep repeating this for another 10 pages.

So far, you have not supported your claim, with any source, that 1) the door was not locked; 2) one teacher died in the ambulance, and you have compared cops to soldiers.
The only soldiers I remember carried shields, were those in Medieval times.

Only, they used swords and spears.
Perhaps you are suggesting they train officers to train without shields, and just go in "soldier style".
I understand, the training is different. Even Navy Seals and Army training differ.
Comparing one to the other doesn't seem reasonable.

By the way, did you sign up for the job yet? Ever got hit with shrapnel, while trying to aim and shoot at a guy firing a AR rifle, while at the same time keeping in mind innocents in the room?

Anyway, you will just keep on with this 'flash bang' 'one line and spreading out ' etc. business, so, until you get those sources to support your claims, I have noted your position on this, thanks.
I have already said enough for you to understand this is not movies night, so I hope you aren't munching on popcorn, with the remote in your hand.

Ballistic shields: A 'must have' for street patrol
A ballistic shield is not always recognized as a necessity until it is too late and an active shooter situation has occurred
“Departments are calling for ballistic shields because their patrol officers are often the first people that might have to handle an active-shooter situation. They should have something to protect themselves further other than a vest,” Thomas said.


I almost forgot... the scripture you quoted does not describe afterlife, but refers to after death, so perhaps you meant to say, "You don't believe the Greek/Christian afterlife "real life" after death is a happy place?"

That is what scripture says. Everlasting life for those resurrected (raised to life) after death, will truly be a happy time.
If you want to join the conversation on Afterlife, you can always respond to @YoursTrue's post, here.

 

[joelr]

Well, like your other posts, where you post your prefered scholarly opinions, and keep posting them page after page, as though those opinions trumps the others, this is no different. So I hope you don't think I will keep repeating this for another 10 pages.

Yes scholarly opinions with evidence anyone can verify trumps anecdotal, telephone game nonsense and apologetics. If not, provide some evidence. I post facts or our best attempt at knowledge. If you are too close minded to actually weight facts and decide which is actually more logical that is your choice. It doesn't make logic and facts wrong. It just makes you close minded to the idea that your beliefs are wrong.
I will challenge my beliefs when evidence warrants. You are already wrong because real scholars are not working with opinions, they are interested in evidence and facts. Clearly this bothers you and the way you dismiss evidence shows your only interest is supporting what you think is true.

So your criticism on my posts is meaningless since I am interested in what is true. But I see why you would want to act in that way. Most people with belief systems have decided they are 100% correct. Every fundamentalist sect of Christianity seems to feel that way along with every sect of Islam, Hinduism and on and on.....

So far, you have not supported your claim, with any source, that 1) the door was not locked; 2) one teacher died in the ambulance, and you have compared cops to soldiers.
The only soldiers I remember carried shields, were those in Medieval times.

Only, they used swords and spears.
Perhaps you are suggesting they train officers to train without shields, and just go in "soldier style".
I understand, the training is different. Even Navy Seals and Army training differ.
Comparing one to the other doesn't seem reasonable.

By the way, did you sign up for the job yet? Ever got hit with shrapnel, while trying to aim and shoot at a guy firing a AR rifle, while at the same time keeping in mind innocents in the room?

Anyway, you will just keep on with this 'flash bang' 'one line and spreading out ' etc. business, so, until you get those sources to support your claims, I have noted your position on this, thanks.
I have already said enough for you to understand this is not movies night, so I hope you aren't munching on popcorn, with the remote in your hand.

Ballistic shields: A 'must have' for street patrol
A ballistic shield is not always recognized as a necessity until it is too late and an active shooter situation has occurred
“Departments are calling for ballistic shields because their patrol officers are often the first people that might have to handle an active-shooter situation. They should have something to protect themselves further other than a vest,” Thomas said.

Nice rant. Too bad you didn't listen to the video. There were 3 people at the table. Tim Kennedy was a soldier. Another was a policeman and is now a fireman and the 3rd man is an active police officer.

All experts in the video agreed everything was done wrong and a small group of men should have entered. The police present are familiar with entry tactics and would have gone in. They also felt the police on scene were cowards.
I will wait for the official report to demonstrate that the door was not locked. You are simply wrong according to experts, including 2 policemen who are trained in proper entry.

Interesting that NOW you understand about supporting claims with evidence when with religion it's all about stories and anecdotal evidence? NOW suddenly you understand logic?

I almost forgot... the scripture you quoted does not describe afterlife, but refers to after death, so perhaps you meant to say, "You don't believe the Greek/Christian afterlife "real life" after death is a happy place?"

That is what scripture says. Everlasting life for those resurrected (raised to life) after death, will truly be a happy time.
If you want to join the conversation on Afterlife, you can always respond to @YoursTrue's post, here.

That changes nothing. It's still a Greek myth taken on by Hebrew religious leaders. None of that is real. It's as made up as Zeus and Hades. Your beliefs don't make it real.


https://wwwc.com/topic/Hellenistic-religion/Beliefs-practices-and-institutions
-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.
-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.



only in Hellenistic times (after c. 330 BCE) did Jews begin to adopt the Greek idea that it would be a place of punishment for misdeeds, and that the righteous would enjoy an afterlife in heaven
Steve Parrish is professor emeritus of Old Testament at Memphis Theological Seminary. His primary research interests have been creation theology in the Hebrew Bible and the Book of Psalms.


-During the period of the Second Temple (c.515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Sanders, Wright and Lambert.


Or are you talking about a quote from Revelations? Because that is definitely a Persian rip-off.
The general resurrection after the final battle comes from the Persian end of the world story. The known origin of apocalyptic literature.

 

[1213]

By 2021, gun violence by crime gangs had increased tenfold since the early 1990s.[6]
According to a report published by academic researchers in 2017, shooting incidents with fatal outcomes are about 4 to 5 times as common in Sweden compared to neighbouring countries such as Germany and Norway when taking population size into account. The city with the highest prevalence of shootings was Malmö. The grave violence in the studied period also changed character, from criminal motorcycle gangs to city suburbs.[7][8] Sweden also stands out in having a low resolution rate (25%) for gun homicides compared to Germany and Finland at 90%.[8]

In January 2018, police statistics reported an increase in gun homicides from 8 in 2006 to 43 in 2017.[9] Analysis of 2011–2017 gang warfare showed that there were 1500 incidents involving firearms, 131 people had been killed and 520 injured.[10]

In February 2018, criminologist Jerzy Sarnecki stated in an interview with magazine Forskning & Framsteg that the increasing levels of gun crime in Sweden had taken him, Swedish criminologists in general and police in Sweden by surprise. He characterised the recent developments as "very serious".[11]

A 2018 systematic review of 25 studies on firearm violence in Sweden by criminologist and physician Ardavan Khoshnood, concluded "that even though knives/sharp weapons continue to be the most common MO in a violent crime in Sweden, firearm-related violence is significantly increasing in the country and foremost when discussing gang-related crimes. Moreover, firearm-related homicides and attempted homicides are increasing in the country. The studies also show that a firearm is much more lethal than a knife/sharp weapon... It is principally the three largest cities of Sweden which are affected by the many shootings in recent years."[12]

Gun violence in Sweden - Wikipedia.

Thanks, interesting information, but I don't think that answers to the question, why it is happening why people are killing now more.