Do you agree with what the Book of Mormon Teaches?

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I would really love to have a good discussion and pick apart the doctrine found in this brief passage and hear what others have to say about it.
These are the words of a man named Alma to his son Corianton at around 73 BCE. Now I really don't want to argue about whether or not Alma actually existed or not, I would really like to discuss the things that he told his son concerning our life on earth, Adam and Eve, Justice and Mercy, the purpose of death and more. I want to hear what you agree with or disagree with and why.

"1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.
31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen." ~Alma

 

[Pegg]

I would really love to have a good discussion and pick apart the doctrine found in this brief passage and hear what others have to say about it.
These are the words of a man named Alma to his son Corianton at around 73 BCE. Now I really don't want to argue about whether or not Alma actually existed or not, I would really like to discuss the things that he told his son concerning our life on earth, Adam and Eve, Justice and Mercy, the purpose of death and more. I want to hear what you agree with or disagree with and why.



9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

just on this point...

the 'soul' in the hebrew scriptures is the 'nephesh'....it is what the man became when God breathed life into his nostrils:
Genesis 2:7 “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul/nephesh.”

We get an idea of what the soul was to the hebrews in some other scriptures. For example, when Rachel had trouble in giving birth to Benjamin, her soul (or life as a soul) went out from her and she died. Genesis 35:16-19 '...And the result was that as her soul was going out (because she died)...' She ceased to be a living person and became a corpse.

And there is also Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"


i cant agree that the soul is eternal....to the hebrews, the living person was the soul.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

just on this point...

the 'soul' in the hebrew scriptures is the 'nephesh'....it is what the man became when God breathed life into his nostrils:
Genesis 2:7 “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul/nephesh.”

We get an idea of what the soul was to the hebrews in some other scriptures. For example, when Rachel had trouble in giving birth to Benjamin, her soul (or life as a soul) went out from her and she died. Genesis 35:16-19 '...And the result was that as her soul was going out (because she died)...' She ceased to be a living person and became a corpse.

And there is also Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"


i cant agree that the soul is eternal....to the hebrews, the living person was the soul.

So 9 was the only verse you disagreed with out of this whole passage?

in 10 did you disagree with the part where Alma said that this earth became probationary state?

 

[Pegg]

So 9 was the only verse you disagreed with out of this whole passage?

in 10 did you disagree with the part where Alma said that this earth became probationary state?

i disagreed with more then that one verse, but thought i'd point out the most obvious one that contradicts the bible.

 

[Pegg]

I also disagree with the bolded red verses

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.


10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.


14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.


26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

the bold verses and the red verses also?

So you disagree with
"and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated."

Why do you believe God placed Cheribum and a flaming sword in the garden to protect the tree of life?

Genesis 3:24
"24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

 

[Pegg]

the bold verses and the red verses also?

So you disagree with
"and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated."

Why do you believe God placed Cheribum and a flaming sword in the garden to protect the tree of life?

Genesis 3:24
"24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

it appears that the writer sees the tree of life as a literal tree that could impart everlasting life to Adam....but the indication from the bible is that it was simply a 'representation' of what was possible if the man had remained with God in the garden.
I say this because the symbolism of the tree is linked with the symbolic 'waters of life' which Jesus spoke of. He said the 'word of God' was like 'fountains of waters of life" and he even called the waters 'life giving' and that they could prevent a person from 'ever becoming thirsty again'...hence it is symbolic water.

then revelation also speaks of the 'trees of life' which are being watered by the symbolic 'waters of life' which will 'heal' the nations
Revelation 22:1-3 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service;

the trees are symbolic, because if you notice, its not the fruits that cure the nations but rather the inedible part of the trees which are the leaves. But in the BOM scripture, the writer says that it is the 'fruit' of the tree of life which can give eternal life.

With regard to the Cheribum protecting the entrance to the garden, this is because the garden itself was a creation by Gods hand. Adam was 'placed' in the existing garden after he was created...so the garden of eden was a spiritual haven and a holy place...it was holy because God would come to the garden and 'walk in the garden'

You might recall that when Gods presence was on the mountain where Moses saw the burning thornbush, the angel told Moses to remove his sandles because the place he was standing on was 'holy ground' ... it was holy because Gods presence was there. And that is exactly as it was in the garden of Eden...it was a holy place and when the man committed an unholy act, he could not remain in that place because he had defiled himself. And this unclean state that he came to be in reminds us of the requirements for entering the Temple of God in Jerusalem. A person who was in an unclean, or defiled state, was not permitted to enter the temple until they were ceremonially cleansed. Adam never did become ceremonially clean which means he never did repent nor did God ever forgive him for his disloyalty.
And thats why the cherubs were guarding the entrance to Eden. The man would never be permitted in Gods presence again.

 

[Shermana]

just on this point...

the 'soul' in the hebrew scriptures is the 'nephesh'....it is what the man became when God breathed life into his nostrils:
Genesis 2:7 “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul/nephesh.”

We get an idea of what the soul was to the hebrews in some other scriptures. For example, when Rachel had trouble in giving birth to Benjamin, her soul (or life as a soul) went out from her and she died. Genesis 35:16-19 '...And the result was that as her soul was going out (because she died)...' She ceased to be a living person and became a corpse.

And there is also Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"


i cant agree that the soul is eternal....to the hebrews, the living person was the soul.

And if Saul even asked the Witch of Endor to bring up Samuel's soul, the concept of the Soul existing after the death was apparently widespread, whether one believes it was really demons in disguise (Which the text does not indicate at all) or not. Goes hand in hand with the prohibition on speaking to the dead.

The land of the dead is called "The land of shades", and "shades" are in fact referenced as actual beings.

The word "Spirit" simply has multiple uses and connotations. The Soul can experience death in the body for example. Thus, "the soul will die" does not at all necessarily mean that it will itself die, but will experience death in the flesh.

How would Jeremiah be known before the womb?

With that said, I disagree with Mormon doctrine on the part that reincarnation is ruled out, as I believe the text is clear that souls will enter the womb again. Jeremiah must have had existence before being in the womb in order to be a choice pick to be a prophet.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

And if Saul even asked the Witch of Endor to bring up Samuel's soul, the concept of the Soul existing after the death was apparently widespread, whether one believes it was really demons in disguise (Which the text does not indicate at all) or not. Goes hand in hand with the prohibition on speaking to the dead.

The land of the dead is called "The land of shades", and "shades" are in fact referenced as actual beings.

The word "Spirit" simply has multiple uses and connotations. The Soul can experience death in the body for example. Thus, "the soul will die" does not at all necessarily mean that it will itself die, but will experience death in the flesh.

How would Jeremiah be known before the womb?

With that said, I disagree with Mormon doctrine on the part that reincarnation is ruled out, as I believe the text is clear that souls will enter the womb again. Jeremiah must have had existence before being in the womb in order to be a choice pick to be a prophet.

Shermana do you agree with this?
"2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man."

Do you believe that there was a tree of life and God had need to protect it with Cheribums and a flaming sword?
And do you believe that this life on earth is a probationary period to repent and serve God?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

it appears that the writer sees the tree of life as a literal tree that could impart everlasting life to Adam....but the indication from the bible is that it was simply a 'representation' of what was possible if the man had remained with God in the garden.
I say this because the symbolism of the tree is linked with the symbolic 'waters of life' which Jesus spoke of. He said the 'word of God' was like 'fountains of waters of life" and he even called the waters 'life giving' and that they could prevent a person from 'ever becoming thirsty again'...hence it is symbolic water.

then revelation also speaks of the 'trees of life' which are being watered by the symbolic 'waters of life' which will 'heal' the nations
Revelation 22:1-3 And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.
3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service;

the trees are symbolic, because if you notice, its not the fruits that cure the nations but rather the inedible part of the trees which are the leaves. But in the BOM scripture, the writer says that it is the 'fruit' of the tree of life which can give eternal life.

With regard to the Cheribum protecting the entrance to the garden, this is because the garden itself was a creation by Gods hand. Adam was 'placed' in the existing garden after he was created...so the garden of eden was a spiritual haven and a holy place...it was holy because God would come to the garden and 'walk in the garden'

You might recall that when Gods presence was on the mountain where Moses saw the burning thornbush, the angel told Moses to remove his sandles because the place he was standing on was 'holy ground' ... it was holy because Gods presence was there. And that is exactly as it was in the garden of Eden...it was a holy place and when the man committed an unholy act, he could not remain in that place because he had defiled himself. And this unclean state that he came to be in reminds us of the requirements for entering the Temple of God in Jerusalem. A person who was in an unclean, or defiled state, was not permitted to enter the temple until they were ceremonially cleansed. Adam never did become ceremonially clean which means he never did repent nor did God ever forgive him for his disloyalty.
And thats why the cherubs were guarding the entrance to Eden. The man would never be permitted in Gods presence again.

One more thing the Bible needs if it were to interpret itself.
An answer key that states exactly when it is speaking literally and when it is speaking figuratively. There are a lot of people out there who believe the whole Adam and Eve story was figurative and never really happened.
You seem to believe that parts of the Adam and Eve story were figurative and others were literal.

 

[Domenic]

Mormons will tell you, they believe in the Bible. They will tell you, “The book of Mormon is the second half of the Bible. Put the two books together, and you have the complete Bible.”
I find just one error with this thinking:
The last page of the Bible: Revelation 22: 18

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Mormons will tell you, they believe in the Bible. They will tell you, “The book of Mormon is the second half of the Bible. Put the two books together, and you have the complete Bible.”
I find just one error with this thinking:
The last page of the Bible: Revelation 22: 18

What Mormons have ever told you the Book of Mormon was the Bible?
I do not believe the Book of Mormon is a sequel by any means.

 

[Flankerl]

Do you agree with what the Book of Mormon Teaches?

Nope not at all.

 

[Domenic]

What Mormons have ever told you the Book of Mormon was the Bible?
I do not believe the Book of Mormon is a sequel by any means.

I have talked to young Mormons in the field. I have talked to many of their Elders they have sent. Yes, the Mormons do say the book of Morman is the back section of the Bible. Do I believe in their Seventh day religion? No. Do you?

 

[Katzpur]

Mormons will tell you, they believe in the Bible. They will tell you, “The book of Mormon is the second half of the Bible. Put the two books together, and you have the complete Bible.”
I find just one error with this thinking:
The last page of the Bible: Revelation 22: 18

And I find the same error in your thinking. Deuteronomy 4:2 states: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." And Deuteronomy 12:32 says much the same thing: "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

If we are going to obey the instructions given us in these passages in Deuteronomy, we should have no scripture following this book. We should not consider anything in the New Testament to be scripturally binding, because it certainly does add to the word of God. Besides, since when did Revelation 22:18 tell us that God himself could not continue to speak to us? It doesn't even tell us that it should be the last book in the New Testament. It merely states that no one should add to it (i.e. Revelation itself) or take away from it. It certainly is not referring to the Bible as a whole, since the Bible didn't even exist at the time John received Revelation.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you agree with what the Book of Mormon Teaches?

Nope not at all.

You've read it then?

 

[Katzpur]

i disagreed with more then that one verse, but thought i'd point out the most obvious one that contradicts the bible.

It only contradicts your interpretation of the Bible. Mormons believe (pretty much as Jehovah's Witnesses do, I believe) that a living soul is the entity that results from a spirit being placed within a physical body. In other words, there is no "soul" without both a spirit and a body. Without the spirit, the "living soul" no longer exists. The spirit, however, we believe to be eternal. I realize that you don't believe this and that you believe it to contradict the Bible. You must also realize, though, that pretty much all Christians except for Jehovah's Witnesses believe as Mormons do -- that the human spirit is immortal. They aren't using the Book of Mormon to support this doctrine, but the Bible. What the Book of Mormon teaches with respect to the immortality of the spirit is really more or less a moot point, since the same teaching can be found in the Bible.

Granted, it does make things a little bit confusing when the words "soul" and "spirit" are sometimes used interchangeably in the Bible.

 

[Katzpur]

I have talked to young Mormons in the field. I have talked to many of their Elders they have sent. Yes, the Mormons do say the book of Morman is the back section of the Bible.

Well, that's kind of a stretch. Yes, there is an edition of the LDS scriptures which contains (1) the Holy Bible (KJV), (2) the Book of Mormon, (3) the Doctrine and Covenants and (4) the Pearl of Great Price. This is for the sake of practicality. It's easier to carry one book with you to church than four. There is, by the way, a separate cover page for each of these four volumes, and the page numbering begins at page 1 in each one.

Do I believe in their Seventh day religion? No. Do you?

What "Seventh day religion" are you talking about?

 

[Katzpur]

For the record... I dislike threads such as this one. Mormonism gets trashed enough as it is without our going around trying to pick a fight with people who don't believe in it. I wish the thread hadn't ever been started, but since it has, I suppose I'll continue to participate. My only other comment at this point would be that it seems to me that the Book of Mormon, perhaps more than any other book ever written, has been so negatively judged by people who have never read past page 2, and who have possibly never even held a copy in their hands. You'd think people would at least bother to read something before declaring that it's a fraud.

 

[Pegg]

yaddo, the accounts of Adam and Eve are literal. They were real people...Jesus himself professed belief in those two humans. The Chronology of the family line of Adam is traced to other individuals who are not viewed as symbolic...Abraham for example!

there is no reason to view Adam and Eve as mere symbols. But some aspects of that literal story have elements of figurative speech in them. The tree of life is understood to be 'representational' of everylasting life because other bible writers also speak of the tree of life in various ways. The Garden of Eden is long gone, so any discussion of the tree of life cannot be refering to a particular tree from that garden .

If i today started speaking of the World Trade Centre, you wouldnt think i am talking about the original buildings whcih were destroyed....you would know i must be speaking figuratively of them in one way or another.