Do we really need to be Forgiven????

[Bird123]

A Religious friend recited what his religion was teaching him. He said Sin is bad. He said we are all Sinners. Finally, He said we all need to be forgiven by God for our Sins.



OK. Let's think about this for a while. God creates us. God is supposed to be Perfect. How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners? Further, since the flaw is God's mistake, why does one need God to forgive us?



Perhaps Religion has it all wrong. Let's assume God is smart enough not to make any mistakes. With that in mind, could Sin be a Good thing?



As I see it, God has not made a mistake. Mankind simply does not Understand what is actually going on. People assume God created us then we screwed it all up. In reality, God is not through creating each of us to our true Perfection. We are living the creation process toward perfection.



Ego gets in the way of so much learning yet Ego is an important part sentience. Since each are individuals with Ego, you can not just tell someone how they should act and expect everyone to follow. Funny how so many Religions think everyone should follow.



In order for one to make perfect choices, one must fully Understand all sides. How can one understand all sides if the choices are limited to one side? It won't happen. With the Ego involved, the choices must be Free Choices. If your choices are not free choices, won't you make the opposite choice as soon as you do get a free choice just to discover what you could not have?



This brings us to Reality as I see it on the road to our perfection. Sin is a necessity for learning. We are living in a multilevel classroom free to choose what we do not understand. In this time-based causal universe we learn through our parameters, those we interact with and the results of our choices. God simply has to return our actions and choices back to us so that we might understand what our choices really mean. In time, through many lifetimes, we Choose our way to perfection. When one truly understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choice.



In a multilevel classroom, students are learning many different things. Often we see others learning lessons we have already learned. Does one Hate, value Blame, want to Condemn and Punish, want revenge and pay back,or value others as a lower life form when we see this? Those are hard lesson one can choose for themselves regardless of how appetizing it can be served up from those who present them as an image of goodness. As I see it, the only Real choice is to recognize we are all on the journey to perfection and what matters most is that no one misses the opportunity to Learn. Each can be a Part of the Real Solution. Point them in the right direction.



As I see it, we are all being taught to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. It can not be an easy thing for God either especially when what sometimes can be the best thing is a hard painful lesson. Still, won't the Results be Glorious at the end of the long road?



Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.



What do you think?

 

[Mister Silver]

Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.

What do you think?

By the standard of reason, forgiveness from a non-reciprocating, imaginary being is unnecessary.

 

[Bird123]

By the standard of reason, forgiveness from a non-reciprocating, imaginary being is unnecessary.

Things that exist can seem imaginary until one actually discovers them. From your point of view and beliefs, I understand your standard of reason.

 

[WalterTrull]

It might be that we are the ones to have to forgive sin, not God. Kinda like taking the wrong turn and ending up in the "bad" side of town. Gotta back up and take the other turn.

 

[Sunstone]

As I understand it, the concept of original sin (which is the ultimate justification for saying we need to be forgiven) was cooked up in its modern form by Augustine.

 

[PureX]

Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.

What do you think?

Forgiveness is a universal necessity.

We will all screw up, intentionally or not. And when we screw up we very often cause other people to suffer because of our screw-ups. And since, in most instances, we cannot 'walk back' the mistake and the damage that we've done, all we have left as mitigation is the healing power of forgiveness. All we can do is ask those we have harmed to forgive us. And then use their forgiveness as an opportunity to try not to screw up like that, again. And in their act of forgiveness, they may be able to find some sense of peace and hope through which they can move on, and move forward. And visa-versa, as we will be the victims of other people's screw-ups just as often as they will be the victims of ours.

Forgiveness is how we lay these things to rest, so that we can move on in life.

Without forgiveness, we inevitably end up trapped a an escalating cycle of vengeance which will very often destroy everyone involved. We see it every day.

 

[Brickjectivity]

A Religious friend recited what his religion was teaching him. He said Sin is bad. He said we are all Sinners. Finally, He said we all need to be forgiven by God for our Sins.

Your friend is confused. First of all, there are evil actions and there are flaws and other accidental errors. Evil actions are in a different class than other lesser sins, but in Greek there is only one word for both. Thus there is confusion about it in many 'Bible-based' churches. They tend to lump everything together from forgetting to tuck in your shirt to murdering your father. Its all just 'Sin' to them, but this is not what the text infers. Starting from there the confusion only gets worse, so don't be too shocked at what your friend has said.

Most sins don't matter. All three gospels quote Jesus saying "The son of man has power on earth to forgive sins." What this means is, he can miraculously make anyone kosher. It is not talking about reversing evils committed like murder and theft. You cannot easily get this unless you have read the law and what the sacrifices are for, but many 'Bible-based' churches start with John 3:16 and never get into much depth. Your friend is not that at fault, because they have started him down a bull**** trail. The Son of Man's job is to purify the world, and he is a symbol. 'Son of man' is a phrase translated from Aramaic which is close but not the same as Hebrew, however if you translate it into Hebrew (which I cannot do but am pretty sure about this) it becomes 'Son of Adam' and that means 'Son of red clay'. It is the title used for Ezekiel the prophet and he is called this in his book, but it also means whoever is reading the book I think. It is sort of like saying 'Every man'. This reference by Jesus is alluding to all previous uses of 'Son of Adam' in the Bible. So your friend, first of all, is mistaken; because God doesn't have to forgive him for most things, such as being human, forgetting things, being an idiot, etc.

Your friend is projecting forgiveness by the son of man onto forgiveness by God, and they are also confusing flaws and mistakes with acts of evil. Basically they are quite confused and being fed ignorance by somebody who is probably getting paid for it. Unlike me. When do I get paid, huh?

 

[Skwim]

OK. Let's think about this for a while. God creates us. God is supposed to be Perfect. How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners?

If his purpose in creating us was for his amusement. Conflict is often key in amusement, so it seems quite reasonable that god would create conflict in the form of disobedience to him (sin) in our lives.

Further, since the flaw is God's mistake, why does one need God to forgive us?

I believe the claimed need for forgiveness is part of the overall plan of those in charge of Christianity and Judaism to keep their followers in line and keep its coffers filled.

Perhaps Religion has it all wrong. Let's assume God is smart enough not to make any mistakes. With that in mind, could Sin be a Good thing?

Only so far as it contributes to his amusement. Many of his sins are down right stupid, such as:

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
(Deuteronomy 23:1)​

and

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die:
(Deuteronomy 22: 20)​

As I see it, God has not made a mistake.

Although Christianity and Judaism have other notions.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
(Genesis 6:6)

“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.”
(1 Samuel 15:10-11)

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
(Exodus 34:14)

.​

.

 

[sun rise]

@Bird123 (first fun comparison with my handle - sunrise 123

I'm very close to agreeing with your OP about learning to love through successive lifetimes.

But I do have a comment on forgiveness. When a child does something wrong, he or she might feel bad and ask for forgiveness. It's a normal human response to regretting a mistake. The response of love is to understand all of this and to respond with love "I forgive you". This is not a theological necessity but the spontaneous response of love.

 

[Bird123]

Forgiveness is a universal necessity.

We will all screw up, intentionally or not. And when we screw up we very often cause other people to suffer because of our screw-ups. And since, in most instances, we cannot 'walk back' the mistake and the damage that we've done, all we have left as mitigation is the healing power of forgiveness. All we can do is ask those we have harmed to forgive us. And then use their forgiveness as an opportunity to try not to screw up like that, again. And in their act of forgiveness, they may be able to find some sense of peace and hope through which they can move on, and move forward. And visa-versa, as we will be the victims of other people's screw-ups just as often as they will be the victims of ours.

Forgiveness is how we lay these things to rest, so that we can move on in life.

Without forgiveness, we inevitably end up trapped a an escalating cycle of vengeance which will very often destroy everyone involved. We see it every day.

Perhaps the emotion part requires forgiveness. Since we are all emotional creatures, many demand forgiveness

 

[Bird123]

Your friend is confused. First of all, there are evil actions and there are flaws and other accidental errors. Evil actions are in a different class than other lesser sins, but in Greek there is only one word for both. Thus there is confusion about it in many 'Bible-based' churches. They tend to lump everything together from forgetting to tuck in your shirt to murdering your father. Its all just 'Sin' to them, but this is not what the text infers. Starting from there the confusion only gets worse, so don't be too shocked at what your friend has said.

Most sins don't matter. All three gospels quote Jesus saying "The son of man has power on earth to forgive sins." What this means is, he can miraculously make anyone kosher. It is not talking about reversing evils committed like murder and theft. You cannot easily get this unless you have read the law and what the sacrifices are for, but many 'Bible-based' churches start with John 3:16 and never get into much depth. Your friend is not that at fault, because they have started him down a bull**** trail. The Son of Man's job is to purify the world, and he is a symbol. 'Son of man' is a phrase translated from Aramaic which is close but not the same as Hebrew, however if you translate it into Hebrew (which I cannot do but am pretty sure about this) it becomes 'Son of Adam' and that means 'Son of red clay'. It is the title used for Ezekiel the prophet and he is called this in his book, but it also means whoever is reading the book I think. It is sort of like saying 'Every man'. This reference by Jesus is alluding to all previous uses of 'Son of Adam' in the Bible. So your friend, first of all, is mistaken; because God doesn't have to forgive him for most things, such as being human, forgetting things, being an idiot, etc.

Your friend is projecting forgiveness by the son of man onto forgiveness by God, and they are also confusing flaws and mistakes with acts of evil. Basically they are quite confused and being fed ignorance by somebody who is probably getting paid for it. Unlike me. When do I get paid, huh?

Aren't mistakes, sins, crimes all the same thing? Sure there varies in degree but their root cause is the same, lack of Understanding what they really are. Forgiveness does not solve anything except feelings. Education is what is needed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A Religious friend recited what his religion was teaching him. He said Sin is bad. He said we are all Sinners. Finally, He said we all need to be forgiven by God for our Sins.



OK. Let's think about this for a while. God creates us. God is supposed to be Perfect. How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners? Further, since the flaw is God's mistake, why does one need God to forgive us?



Perhaps Religion has it all wrong. Let's assume God is smart enough not to make any mistakes. With that in mind, could Sin be a Good thing?



As I see it, God has not made a mistake. Mankind simply does not Understand what is actually going on. People assume God created us then we screwed it all up. In reality, God is not through creating each of us to our true Perfection. We are living the creation process toward perfection.



Ego gets in the way of so much learning yet Ego is an important part sentience. Since each are individuals with Ego, you can not just tell someone how they should act and expect everyone to follow. Funny how so many Religions think everyone should follow.



In order for one to make perfect choices, one must fully Understand all sides. How can one understand all sides if the choices are limited to one side? It won't happen. With the Ego involved, the choices must be Free Choices. If your choices are not free choices, won't you make the opposite choice as soon as you do get a free choice just to discover what you could not have?



This brings us to Reality as I see it on the road to our perfection. Sin is a necessity for learning. We are living in a multilevel classroom free to choose what we do not understand. In this time-based causal universe we learn through our parameters, those we interact with and the results of our choices. God simply has to return our actions and choices back to us so that we might understand what our choices really mean. In time, through many lifetimes, we Choose our way to perfection. When one truly understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choice.



In a multilevel classroom, students are learning many different things. Often we see others learning lessons we have already learned. Does one Hate, value Blame, want to Condemn and Punish, want revenge and pay back,or value others as a lower life form when we see this? Those are hard lesson one can choose for themselves regardless of how appetizing it can be served up from those who present them as an image of goodness. As I see it, the only Real choice is to recognize we are all on the journey to perfection and what matters most is that no one misses the opportunity to Learn. Each can be a Part of the Real Solution. Point them in the right direction.



As I see it, we are all being taught to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. It can not be an easy thing for God either especially when what sometimes can be the best thing is a hard painful lesson. Still, won't the Results be Glorious at the end of the long road?



Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.



What do you think?

I honestly feel that humans want forgiveness but they know they can't depend on others to forgive them (since they can't control others) and they find it hard to forgive themselves, so they project the need and source of the forgiver on an outside party. This party cannot defend himself outside of how humans describe him to be. Outside of our description of god, who or what is god?

If sin is needed, then why do we punish people for murder and look down on people for lying? Wouldn't these sins be put on a pedestal of honor and righteous deeds instead?

It's an oxymoron to say sin is wrong at the same time sin is needed. When you need something, it usually benefits you in one way or another. How does a sin specifically benefit you? If you murder someone or someone hits you, where is the benefit in that? Do you still want to murder or want that person to hit you so you can learn a lesson or do you have the choice to make "good" decisions as opposed to sinful ones?

We don't need forgiveness. We want forgiveness. (We-not generalizing just case in point) Why would people want to be christian if they felt they didn't need nor want (have the motivation towards) forgiveness. When you need something, you can't survive without it. You have billions of people surviving without god of abraham's forgiveness.

So it's a personal thing not a universal thing. We-as a people-don't need to be forgiven. Why forgive someone for sin if the sin is beneficial to their salvation? If anything, the emphasis should be on the unconditional love you're talking about. The thing is--every christian I know says "we have to have sin in order to have forgiveness and grace from god. If not, we'd be robots."

But really think about it. Do you really want to sin? and even more so, do you really want god to forgive you for something you didn't have to have to begin with?

Also, god didn't make a mistake he just created humans who can choose to make mistakes on their own. It's like putting a toddler in a play pin with toys and knives the expecting them by their free choice to pick the toys all the time when that could have been avoided by taking out the knives and let them choose between one toy or another. That doesn't mean they have no choice, it just means there is no sin involved.

We don't need to be forgiven if we were not given the option to sin.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Usually when people talk about forgiveness, they did something determinatal involving another person or thing that isn't warranted or approved by another.

Funny how a predetermined concept qualifies for any type of forgiveness or feelings of guilt such a concept brings.

It's like asking forgiveness for something that another just thought up from thin air.

Kinda crazy.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Aren't mistakes, sins, crimes all the same thing? Sure there varies in degree but their root cause is the same, lack of Understanding what they really are. Forgiveness does not solve anything except feelings. Education is what is needed.

No, they aren't the same things. I can forgive you for looking sloppy. Its a bit much to ask me to forgive you for killing someone I love. They aren't the same either in common sense or in the Bible either.

 

[Bird123]

If his purpose in creating us was for his amusement. Conflict is often key in amusement, so it seems quite reasonable that god would create conflict in the form of disobedience to him (sin) in our lives.


I believe the claimed need for forgiveness is part of the overall plan of those in charge of Christianity and Judaism to keep their followers in line and keep its coffers filled.


Only so far as it contributes to his amusement. Many of his sins are down right stupid, such as:

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
(Deuteronomy 23:1)​

and

"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die:
(Deuteronomy 22: 20)​

Although Christianity and Judaism have other notions.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
(Genesis 6:6)

“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.”
(1 Samuel 15:10-11)

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
(Exodus 34:14)

.​

.

I can't argue with much of what you have said except that God is doing things for amusement.

Is watching others struggle through adversity really amusing? It might be for someone who has had a lot of adversity, however that person would also need lessons to solve that mental problem. I can not see God with mental problems. At least I have not seen it yet.

Adversity does bring advancement in so many ways. Should it really be abandoned for simply having it made? I don't think so.

 

[Bird123]

@Bird123 (first fun comparison with my handle - sunrise 123

I'm very close to agreeing with your OP about learning to love through successive lifetimes.

But I do have a comment on forgiveness. When a child does something wrong, he or she might feel bad and ask for forgiveness. It's a normal human response to regretting a mistake. The response of love is to understand all of this and to respond with love "I forgive you". This is not a theological necessity but the spontaneous response of love.

Yes, there is an emotional issue around forgiveness. Some require it in order to feel better. In that case the I forgive you is an act of love so they do not feel bad.

I like the old saying. Love is never having to say you are sorry.

I might tell someone I am sorry if I hurt them but forgiveness has nothing to do with that.

If others hurt me, forgiveness is never an issue. I just do my best to point them in the right direction toward their learning.

I have seen too many times in the past that people use forgiveness or the demand for forgiveness to manipulate or control the actions of others. In fact, I see religions doing just that when they insist one needs God's forgiveness. Clearly, it is not important to God.

As I see it, Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Is it really best to demand others to ask forgiveness at every bad choice when one could never get really good without bad choices? I don't see it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Without forgiveness, we inevitably end up trapped a an escalating cycle of vengeance which will very often destroy everyone involved. We see it every day.

That's not my experience, unless that all you mean by forgiveness is not exacting revenge or continuing to seethe indefinitely. Absent a sincere apology, I have no reason to even consider forgiveness unless maintaining the relationship is important, and even then, there is not so much forgiveness as the pragmatic willingness to act as if the act in question hadn't occurred.

But that doesn't mean that I harbor hatred or plan retaliation. I just walk away and evolve into a state of disrespect and indifference. There is no "escalating cycle of vengeance" and nobody is destroyed.

This reminds me of the Christian admonition to love one's enemies. Same answer. The most that someone that has chosen to be my enemy can reasonable hope for is non-retaliation and eventual indifference.

Christians would also advise me to offer this enemy the other cheek to smite.

How can any of that constitute good advice? Why would I love an enemy or offer one a second shot at me?

Are you a Christian? If so, can you answer me why isn't non-retaliation and indifference without forgiveness enough? Can any Christian answer that?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Is watching others struggle through adversity really amusing?

That depends who you are:

• "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned ... So that they may be urged the more to praise God ... The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens ... to the damned" - Thomas Aquinas

• "The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery." - Bishop Newcomb

• This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed." - Samuel Hopkins

• "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven ... The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever ... Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell ... I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." - Jonathan Edwards

• "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." - Tertullian

 

[RedDragon94]

How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners?

Maybe he didn't and we just created it for ourselves.

could Sin be a Good thing?

Can rebellion ever accomplish something good? Sometimes.

In reality, God is not through creating each of us to our true Perfection.

Yes. Exactly, God is recreating the world.

God simply has to return our actions and choices back to us so that we might understand what our choices really mean.

And he does do this, just not over many lifetimes, but one. It's a gracious thing for god to allow us to learn from our mistakes.

Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.

Forgiveness is the beginning of grace (which is love we do not deserve).

What do you think?

If forgiveness is not needed how do we learn to forgive?

 

[WalterTrull]

I thought my father in law had a humorous (but often practical) adage. "It's much easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."