BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
We owe God death for sin; Romans 6:23, Romans 3:23, Romans 4:1-5, etc.
Jesus's death paid the debt.
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Do we owe God for sin?
- Thread starter Eileen
- Start date
We owe God death for sin; Romans 6:23, Romans 3:23, Romans 4:1-5, etc.
Jesus's death paid the debt.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Does this say we owe HaShem our death for sin or does it simply say we have failed to live up to HaShem's standard?
Rom 4:1-5 says nothing about death for sin.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Again, this verse clearly teaches that we earn death from sin and nothing about owing HaShem our death.
Where is it written that Yeshua,s "paid" anything.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I was just looking for verses which directly say that God holds us to account:
Amos 3:2 ‘You alone I have known out of all the families of the earth.+
That is why I will call you to account for all your errors...
13 ‘Hear and warn* the house of Jacob,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, the God of armies.
14 ‘For in the day I call Israel to account for all his revolts,*+
...
15 I will strike down the winter house along with the summer house.’
‘The houses of ivory will perish,+
And the great* houses will come to their end,’+ declares Jehovah.”
Daniel 9:11 All Israel has overstepped your Law and turned away by not obeying your voice, so that you poured out on us the curse and the sworn oath written about in the Law of Moses the servant of the true God,+ for we have sinned against Him.
Hosea 12:2 Jehovah has a legal case against Judah;+
He will call for an accounting against Jacob according to his ways,
And he will repay him according to his deeds.
When Gods laws are overstepped, God holds us to account for that and brings punishment on wrongdoers just as he did when he allowed the nation of Isreal to be devoured by its enemies on many occasions. Death is not merely a consequence of wrongdoing... it is a judgement handed out by God when God calls each one to account for their sins.
I have never indicated that we are not held accountable for our sins but even these verses do not say we owe HaShem our life for our sin but that death comes as a result of sin. Yes, death can be seen as a punishment for unrepented sins but so is famine, war, slavery, etc. All those were not natural things and they were always meant to turn Israel back to HaShem.
These verses do speak of judgments and punishment but in context they also say these judgments and punishments were/are for the sins of turning away from HaShem and His commandments and instructions, and if you will read the whole account you will find that when Israel finally repented and returned to HaShem's ways she was forgiven and blessed (and will be again) . The same holds true for us.
Natural death comes to all humans as a natural consequence of sin unless something unnatural happens to cause our death prematurely But because Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; we will all die. It is the natural outcome of sinning and even though we are forgiven of our sin when we repent the consequences remains. A thief maybe forgiven but he will still owe restitution. A liar may be forgiven but the consequences of the lie remains.
The point is that not every sin delineated in Torah (by which is the knowledge of sin) requires the death penalty. The death penalty is not a natural death but the consequence of deliberate, knowing sin is death.
Although unnatural or premature death may be a punishment natural death is the result of sin. Even being murdered which is and unnatural death is the result of someone else's sin (the one who murdered). We do not owe HaShem our death, death comes as a wage sin pays us.
I have to apologize to everyone here. I am making an argument concerning the subject and verses cited but what I meant when I wrote 'not an argument" was I did not want to get into a nasty argument where people just say things to and about each other personally. What has been going on here is a true debate and it has been very good. I thank you all.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
"He nailed up the offenses which were written against us..."
In Roman prison, your offenses were marked on a note pinned to your jail cell. Debtors were imprisoned listing the amounts of their debt.
But I apologize as paid is perhaps not the best word to have used. The best word might have been RANSOM. A ransom requires payment.
asm Jenkins
Member
I'm not afraid of being judged on judgement day, I don't know anyone who is, even those who have sinned against others.
What about people who believe that god is in the process of separating the goats from the sheep?
What about people who believe that god is in the process of separating the goats from the sheep?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
While it was unclean it was not a debt against the quality but to the person. This following passage may help with that understanding from a Christian perspective.
"Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law."
- Romans 13:8
David sinned gravely. He not only showed a lack of love for his fellow man, but he also showed a lapse in consideration for Jehovah's feelings. He changed his attitude when corrected though and as a life-pattern he loved Jehovah's law. (Ps 40:8)
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
what if death is not natural at all?
then any death, ie the death of a child or of an adult, must be caused by something else.
The Hebrew scriptures identify a condition in mankind which beings with conception:
Psalm 51:5 Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin
Sin is passed on from parent to child... it is a 'condition' of mankind and it is also mentioned in the book of Job:
“Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean? There is not one.”—Job 14:4.
Every child born to Adam, is a sinner from birth... its an inborn defect. Sin is not just about our actions...it goes deeper then wrong actions alone.
Once again Psalms is poetry it employs hyperbole, exaggeration to express emotion it should not be used to make doctrine. David is repenting of his sin with Bathsheba here and if you take vs 5 literally you must take vs 7 that way to
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Does HaShem purge everyone with a plant and is anyone really whiter than snow?
In context Job had his eye wholly on the frail and dying state of man, and not at all upon his moral state.
When context and style of writing i.e.-poetry, parable (story) is taken into consideration there is no Biblical support for the doctrine of Original or inherited sin.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I agree that the expressions being used are symbolic, but they are symbolic of spiritual truths.
The fact is that when they spoke in poetic language about physical things, there was a spiritual application.
For example, the expression 'Their own blood is upon them' found at Leviticus 20:27
This is not literally saying that blood is on them.... its saying that they are responsible for their sins. Those put death for such sin are responsible for their actions and the loss of their 'blood' or 'life' is their own doing.
Fire is also used as a way to clean a person of wrongdoing. Obviously this is not to be taken literally either, but being 'refined by fire' would have been well understood because fire was used to refine gold and other metals to make them pure. Eg Malachi 3:2-3 says 2 “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye*+ of laundrymen. 3 And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver+ and will cleanse the sons of Leʹvi; and he will clarify* them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.
This language has a literal meaning and a spiritual meaning....the spiritual meaning refers to being cleaned.
So there is spiritual application in these expressions.
Although the verses you put forth can be explained by the words 'this is HaShem's cleansing there are places that that concept is clearly stated. However, there are no clear statements that we are born in a sinful condition, in fact there are many verses that negate that idea.
Isa. 7:15-16 speaking of Isaiah's son or in Christian interpretation, Jesus :For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhor shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Matt. 19:13-14; Luke 18:16-17 - Is Jesus saying that we should become like little sinners?
Jeremiah 19:4-5; Psalm 106:37-38 - In sacrificing babies to idols, they shed innocent blood. If babies inherit Adam's sin, they would not be innocent.
Each individual becomes a sinner when he breaks God's law. 1 John 3:4
One becomes guilty of sin when he responds to temptation. James 1:13-14
People become servants of sin because they present themselves as servants of sin. Rom. 6:16-19
There are several more.
You obviously believe we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, I know I did at one time but I saw that it is not truly supported by the Bible. We are taught to see it where it really is not. It is an Augustinian concept has become a very damaging doctrine. But I understand you believe it and it makes sense to you especially when you look at the history of mankind and the present condition we find ourselves in. An internet search of the origins of the doctrine might shed some light on this for you, it you are at all interested. I am certain we are where we are because of the choices we have made generation after generation to disregard HaShem's instructions on how we should live.