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Featured Do we need to repent of our sins now?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by djhwoodwerks, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    Sin is invented nonsense.

    Religion creates sin in order to sell you the cure it alone pretends to have.
     
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Good, you don't believe in sin, so your comments mean nothing in this thread! The OP is not to debate whether or not sin exists.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Optomistically, usually when someone asks forgiveness of god, they change their heart to do things for god. Its giving gratitude for receiving forgiveness and grace.
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I would say on earth but Im not JW. There is no pergatory in JW beliefs, so I dont know what deeds they are judged unless its a slipup on language. Maybe ask a JW they mean by not being judged on this earth. It could be a misinterpretation on your part. Who knows but the people who practice.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Sin just means transgression. Eve some Buddhist sutras use the word sin in their translation. Murders sin because they broke the law.
     
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  6. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    Lol really?

    If you knew what Dharma meant you probably would care about at least the idea of it albiet in a Christian way.

    Unfortunately there is no good translation but in Hinduism it's basically the foundation of morality and rightful living as well as the laws of nature that allow things to exist and interact and for harmony between those things to be possible. Without Dharma there is no balance, no way for things to exist and no foundation for morality... for the Hindu anyway.

    I would think that you as a Christian would have a similar concept about the nature of your god fulfilling these roles, no?
     
  7. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    The Lord God Almighty, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, is holy.
     
  8. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 1:3 (ESV Strong's) 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
     
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  9. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    What are you saying? That seems like a rather abtruse answer. That or you didn't understand what I was getting at.

    Now see @DavidFirth this guy gets it! He understands what I meant.

    Thank you for that verse @djwoodwerks

    Do you have a similar one for the harmony of things and morality that I can compare to the other qualities I mentioned?
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is true...it's all in the way you twist it to make a drama where there isn't one.

    The highest penalty under God's law was death. The dead have paid 'sin's wages' and thanks to Christ's ransom, can be resurrected with a fresh start....forgiven for their past deeds, often committed in ignorance. Do you have a disagreement with that? :shrug: Where there is no law, there is no sin. These people lived and died without law and without God.

    If Jesus is going to call "both the righteous and the unrighteous" from their graves....(not from the spirit realm) then those "sleeping in death" will be given opportunity to live under Christ's rulership for a thousand years, regaining the perfection of mind and body that Adam once enjoyed. For the majority, it will be their first opportunity to hear the good news and bring their conduct and worship into line with God's original purpose...to have a race of free willed beings, obediently following the instructions of their Grand Instructor. Do you have a problem with that? :shrug:

    Billions of people down through the centuries have lived and died not knowing Christ or the true God....that is why, only in these "last days" the "good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations" before God brings an end to satan's domination of this earth. (Matthew 24:14) Those living in this "time of the end" will be judged at Christ's manifestation. Those judged as goats will be destroyed forever, according to the Bible. Even those who think they are Christians in good standing, will be in for a rude shock. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    When Christ comes as judge, the majority of humankind will have rejected the true God outright, choosing instead to follow popular godless evolution or false worship in its many forms. The ones who have separated themselves out of Babylon the great will be given opportunity to prove who they really are during the thousand years of the kingdom's rule.....at the end of which is one final test. We all get to prove to God who we really are by how we use our free will. No one will be eliminated from existence if they prove to be "sheep".

    “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Christ in Power Judges the Sheep and the Goats — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    You seem to want to misrepresent Jehovah's Witnesses at every opportunity and yet you don't seem to realize that you show yourself to be completely wrong about what we believe.....?

    I thank Carlita for being the voice of reason.

    Exactly....Jesus paid the ultimate price for all sinners because we had no way to redeem ourselves. I do not understand your problem. [​IMG] If you are forgiven, why do you need to pay for past sins? I don't get it?
     
  11. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am in disagreement with that.

    Do you understand "paid wages"? I don't think you do. The way you are explaining it, it should say, 'the dead have paid sin it's wages'. You're saying we pay sin the wages of death. That's wrong, sin pays us the wage of death.

    Romans 6:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    The wage sin PAYS US is death, we don't pay sin death. Do you work? The wage your job pays is money, does that mean you pay the money, or your employer?

    I will agree with that somewhat, maybe, those who lived from Adam to Moses will be given the opportunity, because as you said, "where there's no law, there's no sin".

    I don't agree with that, except for the few tribes that live in remote parts of the world. Most people have heard of God or Jesus, and have refused to learn or have rejected them.

    Again, I disagree. The Bible has been around for a long, long time. Billions of people have heard of God, but have rejected Him or never took the time to learn.


    If you are forgiven, how can you be acquitted of something that doesn't exist? Since witnesses teach that one is acquitted of sin when they die, if you're forgiven, what are you being acquitted of?
     
  12. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    So, Christ's ransom wasn't good enough? People still have to pay the dept with death?

    That's like saying, they paid the ransom to set the kidnapped person free, but the kidnapped person still has to pay something to be set free.

    Jesus paid the ransom, He was the sacrifice for sin, why do we still have to pay with death? That's paying twice!
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    We do not claim to be "the only true religion", but the only ones fully adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ.....all of them, not just the convenient ones. We are Christians in the true sense of the word because we will not shed blood for any human government and we will not support the devil's world by following its politics, its greed and immorality, or its false religion. We are known for fulfilling Matthew 28:19-20 but Christendom, by and large, ignores it or makes excuses as to why they don't witness in this time of the end. (Ezekiel 3:17-21)

    And who is "we" in that statement BTW? Those resurrected by Jesus are those he has judged worthy of a return to life. If someone has had a thorough witness and rejected the Kingdom message outright before death at this point in time, then in all probability they will remain in their graves forever. These "last days" are a judgement period, just as the days before the flood were a judgment period. The warning is given and if God's instructions are not followed, we can expect an adverse judgment. How many people survived the flood? Same scenario, Jesus said. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    Thank you for your efforts here Carlita. Your Witness friend conveyed the the Bible's message to you well.
    To us, death is the end of life. Without a resurrection, all humans would be out of existence forever, thanks to Adam.

    1 Cor 15:20-23:
    "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam allare dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."

    God knows a person's heart before they die. There is a book of life and those whom God finds agreeable to his heart are written down in it. (the "righteous") Since these ones have had all their former sins forgiven, they will be resurrected to life again. Those who had no knowledge of God (the "unrighteous") will also be resurrected to undergo a spiritual education program, as God's people have always done. Those who survive the end of the present system will become their teachers, just as they are training to do now.

    Do you imagine that the dead are not then alive on being resurrected during judgment day? Judgment day is 1,000 years long! It is the period in which all humanity then alive will become fully reconciled to God. That is the whole purpose of the kingdom....to get back for us what Adam lost.

    Just like Lazarus, the dead were sleeping in a tomb one minute and raised to full physical life the next. Lazarus "slept" for four days....Jesus "slept" for three. Lazarus was made alive in the flesh....Jesus was made alive in the spirit so that he could return to heaven. There are two resurrections....a "first" one to heaven for those who will rule with Christ (Revelation 20:6) and then a general resurrection to life on earth for their subjects. (John 5:28-29)

    Me too.....[​IMG]
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Again you appear to be overthinking everything. The wages of sin is death. No sin = no death. That was the basis for the scenario in Eden. The first humans chose to unleash something that could not be taken back, (a knowledge of evil) so in order for the result not to be wasted, it became an object lesson for all humankind on the consequences of disobeying the Creator. It leads nowhere good. All of us sin and are therefore deserving of death.....enter the savior, who volunteered to pay the debt left to us by our father Adam. None of us could pay a perfect life for a perfect life....only someone who came from outside the now defective human race could offer to God a ransom for us. He did so willingly.

    After the flood of Noah's day, humans drifted to various parts of the earth as God had now forced them to do after confusing their language at Babel. He told them to spread abroad in the earth but they refused and began to build great cities to make a celebrated name for themselves under the leadership of the first rebel after the flood...Nimrod. He was the first human to become a deity and mankind fell into many forms of false worship all over the world.

    That is why God had the preaching work done. In the first century, those who came to Jerusalem for the festival of Pentecost heard the gospel preached in their own language by Christ's disciples gifted by the holy spirit. This was their opportunity to come to Christ. Many did, but the majority of the Jews under influence from their proud leaders, rejected him. Those in Christendom are offered the same opportunity, but the majority will reject the message because they too think that a small bunch of 'heretics' have nothing of value to share with them. It is no coincidence that Christendom of today mirrors the Judaism of Jesus' day.

    The sin inherited from Adam is in our physical bodies. This is the sin Jesus came to remove....that awful inheritance over which we have little control....the one that results in aging, sickness and death. It also means that a tendency to do wrong has to be fought every day. (Romans 7:21-25) The sins we commit because of that situation can be forgiven if we genuinely repent, but the sin in our bodies is the one Christ's sacrifice will eliminate. Adam was sinless when God created him....yet he still chose to do wrong. He had no excuse for disobeying his God......but we, as his children have inherited something God can fix, but only if we choose the right path of our own volition.....one of obedience and faithfulness, despite our inclinations and imperfections.

    Really? Perhaps further clarification is needed.

    Romans 6:7 ASV
    "for he that hath died is justified from sin."

    ESV "For one who has died has been set free from sin."

    The word used here is dikaioō (G1344 Strongs) and it is translated in different verses to mean....
    1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
    2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
    3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

    To gain an acquittal, a person has to have all charges against them, dropped. This is what happens when a person has died. They are set free from their former sins. They have paid the highest penalty there is for any sin they may have committed, according to God's law. That means that their resurrection takes place with no former sins hanging over their heads.

    "Sin" is simply an archery term that means to "miss the mark". We 'miss the mark' of perfection that Adam was created with. Jesus' sacrifice means that the mark will be removed like a bad stain on our best suit.

    There are two kinds of sin......the one we can't help (our inherited imperfection that results in our physical death....no one gets out of this life alive) and the one we can help (our chosen and deliberate actions). Jesus sacrifice cancels out Adam's sin that we inherited, but it also allows for the forgiveness of the sins we commit due to our imperfection and for which we express sincere regret. Jesus did not come to justify our sins, he came to remove the cause of them.

    Is that any clearer?
     
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  15. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Come on Deeje, is this comment, 'theocratic warfare'? You don't come right out and say, 'we are the only true religion', but answer this question, truthfully, if you can.

    Which religion, church/congregation, outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses, do you identify with as not being part of the "world empire of FALSE religion'?
     
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  16. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    So everyone who is not a witness is part of Christendom, and Christendom is "FALSE" religion, correct? So that makes the witnesses the "only true religion", correct?
     
  17. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    The Jehovah's Witnesses are wise in their own way to not be confessing themselves as "the only true religion" because they know they don't have everything right and that some things they believe in will change, but change can come ONLY through their "faithful and discreet slave". So the real true religion according to Jehovah's Witnesses is to believe in the men of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Faithful and discreet slave - Wikipedia
     
  18. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Who do you think, from Adam to this very minute, has had "no knowledge of God' or has not heard of God, or has not had the opportunity to learn about God? The unrighteous are sinners, everyone has had opportunity to learn about God.

    Romans 1:18-20 (ESV Strong's) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
     
  19. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    You think I twist it?

    Let's look and see who's doing the twisting,

    *** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
    Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “The one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7)

    Your teachers use Romans 6:7 to teach that one's physical death acquits them from sin, but what does it really say,

    Romans 6:2-7 (ESV Strong's) How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

    Died to sin, not physical death, because they are still living.

    Baptized in death with Jesus, but, STILL ALIVE.

    Buried WITH Christ into death by baptism, NOT physical death.

    Our old self, the body of sin was crucified with Christ so that sin will be brought to nothing, but STILL ALIVE.

    For the one who has died, has been crucified with Christ, buried with Christ thru baptism but STILL ALIVE has been set free from sin.


    Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    Verse 7 has nothing to do with physical death! So, who's doing the twisting?
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Here again is your assumption that JW's are not truthful. Where do you get off with an accusation like that?
    Our position is that if it means danger to our brothers, we will withhold information so as not to place them in such danger. We are not obligated to give information to those who have no right to demand it. Christ himself withheld information from those to whom it was not owing. (Mark 15:1-5; Isaiah 53:7) That is not lying unless you want to accuse the Christ of doing that. You twist the truth to your own advantage....but this is nothing new for Christians who have been misrepresented from the beginning. (Matthew 5:11-12)

    "Babylon the great" is identified by their beliefs, all of which originated in ancient Babylon.....which include....

    A trinity or multiplicity of gods.
    The belief that an immortal part of man that departs the body at death to inhabit a spiritual realm
    A destiny that involves either heaven or hell as the only options
    A punishment of eternal torment, suffering forever in flames for the wicked
    Using the sign of the cross as a religious symbol

    Any religion that teaches these doctrines, whether so called "Christian" or not (please note that these beliefs are commonly held throughout most pagan religions in the world with slight modifications) are part of "Babylon the great" in our view.

    God's command to his "people" is to "get out of her if you do not want to share in her sins and receive part of her plagues". (Revelation 18:4-5)....we have obeyed that directive....have you? You can't remove yourself from somewhere if you don't know you are in it....can you?
     
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