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Featured Do We Need Faith?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by nPeace, Aug 14, 2022.

  1. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    The switch was spontaneously flipped before I understood there was a switch.
     
  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Was it here? Could you link me?
    I'd like to respond directly.

    You think? I don't see it as interesting, but perhaps I'm missing context.

    Some level of irony is inherent is staring that all religion will be attacked, and that this commenced through the agency of a false religion.

    No need to capitalise atheism. And I'm sure you're not suggesting one atheist speaks for all atheists are you?
    If you are, why give such power to this particular atheist? Why not me, for example?



    I would have gone with politics as an example, rather than science. Science is merely a process, and if done poorly, it will illicit poor results. It also has a clear, objective track record of successful outcomes, and these can be repeated via that process.

    Politics is much more subjective, as is religion. Neither can be waved away, whatever our thoughts, and both are impactful.

    Is this a real atheist? Even if you initially started with a real one, this paragraph is a straw man.
    It's as ridiculous as me saying 'the theist would no doubt answer....'

    Of course there is doubt. You're talking about millions of people with no agreed dogma. Herding atheists is almost as ineffective as herding theists.

    Within that broad group, there might be smaller groupings who actually hold to consistent ideologies, and those ideologies can be assessed, generalised, and critically evaluated. But at a higher level? Eeesh. Straw man.


    Happy to discuss the good and bad of religion or science with you at any time. But not via a false dichotomy, nor whilst you're telling me what atheists think.

    People appear to be able to live without either. If you mean 'prosper' it's going to be a more specific discussion.
     
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  3. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    So how did you have knowledge that you could do it before you tried it?
     
  4. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    Spontaneous mystical experience.
     
  5. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a miracle.
     
  6. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Religious science. Science.

    Get rid of it.

    Spirituality innocence. Natural mutual equal human family. Group everyone first.

    Lets get rid of religion.

    Religious medicine. Different historic church building founding a healing building by its designed function. Not occult nuclear sciences.

    Let's return to human healing no science preaching theism allowed.

    Lying energy remains constant. Only when the mass holds it in mass.. energy constantly is removed making nothing holes as it goes away.

    Bodies become smaller.

    Earth God now a very small body. O earth now has nearly changed into a nothing hole. Brother scientist inventor trying to activate it in his science position god the planet...earths mass as God.

    His science control only earths mass.
     
  7. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    I imagine that when a young bird first jumps out of the nest and into space, it is exhibiting faith of a sort.
     
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  8. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    I know what you mean, but no science is bad science, it only is bad if used for bad ends. Likewise, religion is bad only if used for bad ends. If they go hand-in-hand for good ends that would be the best. I agree that good religion without any science, would be better than science used for bad ends without religion. Indeed good religion guarantees science will be used for good ends.
     
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  9. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    There needs to be no conflict, I agree. They should go hand-in-hand.
     
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  10. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    That's what is wrong the Western world today, using religion as a hobby. Religion should be people's life, and used to make the world a better place.
     
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  11. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    It's a little different in America with the group classified as evangelicals. Interesting, I didn't know it was that different in Europe.
     
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  12. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    I have a different perspective. Good evidence leads to faith.
     
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  13. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    There is a lot of bad science.

    It's bad science if an experiment is poorly
    performed. There's more ways to screw up
    tests and experiments than anyone has yet found.

    There is also deliberate dishonesty such
    as came out of tobacco industry medical
    tests, or is being done by so called "creation
    science"

    It's bad because of false results that can cause tremendous harm.

    As for bad religions, new ones are being dreamed up all the
    time. Heavens Gate and that one with the hool aid are quite arguably bad.
     
  14. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Especially if one selects only evidence
    that suits them, ignores what does not.

    Faith was what the Heavens Gate people
    had when they killed themselves so they
    could get to the comet.
    The boys of 911 had strong faith.

    Faith is far from automatically good.
     
  15. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    That's not what I meant about science used for bad ends. I meant science that is derived using correct methods used for bad ends. However, I get your point.
     
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  16. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    Yes, obviously. But I mean evidence using independent investigation fairly.
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Like two wings of a bird are necessary for it to fly, both science and religion are needed for humanity to function properly.

    “Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism...” Paris Talks, p. 143
     
    #77 Trailblazer, Aug 15, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Not falsifiable, and that's its called faith
     
  19. Dao Hao Now

    Dao Hao Now Member

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    The problem with questions like this is each of these words; “faith” and “need” both have various definitions and, if your particular meaning isn’t specified, semantics becomes the obfuscation that people hide behind in order to misrepresent or hedge a point of view.
    This is sometimes done with intention and sometimes through ignorance.

    If by “faith” you mean “belief in a god or in the doctrines and teachings of a religion” (I assume?), then what do you mean by “need”?

    DEFINITION FOR NEED (1 OF 1)
    noun:
    1. a requirement, necessary duty, or obligation:

    2. a lack of something wanted or deemed necessary:
    to fulfill the needs of the assignment.

    3. urgent want, as of something requisite:
    He has no need of your charity.

    4. necessity arising from the circumstances of a situation or case:
    There is no need to worry.

    5. a situation or time of difficulty; exigency:
    to help a friend in need;
    to be a friend in need.

    6. a condition marked by the lack of something requisite:
    the need for leadership.

    7. destitution; extreme poverty:
    The family's need is acute.

    If you mean is it ‘necessary’ (#1) in order to practice a faith;
    Arguably yes.

    If you mean is it ‘required’ (#1) for human survival;
    Definitely not. Atheism is proof of that.

    If you mean ‘something wanted or deemed necessary’ (#2) for the emotional fulfillment of some (though not necessarily all);
    Perhaps? This becomes a subjective personal judgment call.

    Where you say “it highlights the flawed thinking atheism promotes”,
    you are exposing your flawed understanding of what atheism is.

    a·the·ism
    /ˈāTHēˌizəm/
    noun
    1.
    disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

    Notice there is nothing about adherence to any teachings or system of beliefs.
    It is a stance on only one claim…..whether any gods exist. That’s all folks!


    DANGER,….. DANGER,…..DANGER…..
    STRAW MAN ALERT…….DANGER :eek:

    Maybe instead of imagining a conversation with an atheist you’ve manufactured in your mind….
    You could open your mind up to listening to what actual atheists say.

    I (an atheist in real life) would tell you to first clarify your meaning as explained above.

    I would also explain your problematic terminology with “good religion” and “bad religion” by pointing out that those are subjective judgements.
    What one person would consider “good religion”
    might be considered by others (and often is) as
    “bad religion” and vice versa.

    With science being only a tool (they best we’ve yet derived) to pragmatically and systematically learn about our surroundings and understand how things work, things are different.
    “Good science” and “bad science” are also judgements.
    However, these terms are used to describe how well the process of science was applied.
    This can often objectively be determined.
     
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  20. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    If you have genuinely good evidence there's no need for faith.
     
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