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Featured Do We Need Faith?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by nPeace, Aug 14, 2022.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    GPS - God's powerful spirit. :D
    Whom was it that led the Israelites through the wilderness and brought them to the promised land... in his own time.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    ...and you make this claim based on...?
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Even if it was said here, you know you are asking me to break a rule of RF, right?
    See here.


    I capitalize Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Zionist, Satanist, Methodist... Atheist.
    They are all proper nouns.
    Proper nouns refer to a specific person, place, or thing and are always capitalized. Common nouns refer to a general concept or thing and are only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence.


    Can you forget what I think Atheists think. Or is that very important to you?
    There are more important things to discuss, like the good and bad of religion or science... unless you have more to clear up on Atheists.
     
  4. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Because that's where lack of verifiable evidence inevitably leads when people refuse to accept that I Don't Know is the only appropriate answer.
     
  5. MixedMartialArts

    MixedMartialArts New Member

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    The reality is this.
    Faith is literally part of our makeup.

    When we wake up we don’t know that our front door is closed. We have many reason to think it will be, namely we shut it last night, our dog never barked etc…

    When we drop little sally off at school, we have a reasonably strong belief she’ll be ok in the hands of the adults at school. Zero certainty or proof.

    to be human is to have faith in many things.
    But when it comes to spirituality we seem to get weird about faith in this realm.

    ultimately, religion or philosophy or ideologies give humans a guiding post to attach their desire to know right from wrong on.

    we seem to really want to understand right and wrong and are perfectly willing to trust, have faith, believe our version of right and wrong makes the most sense? At least to ourselves.

    but then we realize 7 billion people have perhaps slightly different ideas.

    faith surrounds us and if used decently can lead to great things.
    If used badly it can cause great harm (see cults)
     
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  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Ah - so you stripped it of its context. Got it.

    Edit: and it wasn't a direct quote.
     
  7. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    I don't wear makeup.
     
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  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    The examples you’ve given - the front door & the kids being safe at school - are non-supernatural scenarios.

    Religions and spirituality required -
    1. beliefs in supernatural phenomena like supernatural entities, eg spirits, gods, angels, demons, jinns, Deva & Devi, fairies, ghosts, etc,
    2. or beliefs in supernatural events, miracles, creation myths, reincarnation, resurrection, immortality, magic, superpower, psychic powers, etc,
    3. or beliefs in supernatural places, eg heavens, paradise, hell, Olympus, Tartarus, Field of Reeds, Duat, Asgard, Valhalla, etc.

    Faith are required to accept these beliefs in the supernatural.

    To date, there have no evidence to support any one belief or claim of the supernatural.

    All these supernatural don’t exist in natural reality, existing only in imagination of people, on hearsay or in deluded fantasies.

    You only gave examples of non-supernatural scenarios. TRY SHOWING EXAMPLES of supernatural scenarios of where the supernatural are real.

    Can you show even one “supernatural” to be “real” and “verifiable”?
     
  9. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Nope...no rule breaking required. I'm merely asking for a direction to whatever the other thread was (if here). I'm not adverse to pushing back on other atheists when I disagree with them.

    Thanks for the link, I see it's a video. I'll check it out later (currently sipping coffee in a public cafe...lol)

    Except they're not. All the religions you mentioned are indeed proper nouns. But atheism isn't a religion and is not a proper noun, much like theist, or agnostic.

    Exactly. Atheism is just a general concept.

    I can't forget it, but I'm happy to put it aside for the purpose of discussion. I'm not sure if we'll have similar or different points if view on science and religion, but I guess the main divergence I had with the OP (apart from anything related to the concept of atheism) is that I'd see both religion AND science as unnecessary, in the truest sense of the word.
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Well, no. Not zero certainty. A track record of our beliefs about these sorts of things being confirmed provides us with a good - albeit not perfect - level of certainty.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What ‘justifies’ a belief in God? What justifies a belief in God for one person does not necessarily justify a belief on God for another person.
    I fully agree that the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence should be. I never presumed that God existed without a reason to believe so. I never even thought about God before I became a Baha’i and believed in Baha'u'llah.
    Science is up to the task of explaining the physical reality as far as it has discovered it, whereas religion is up to the task of explaining spiritual reality as well as the purpose of life, values and morals, and the particular message that God wants us to have in every age.
    I believe that science is constantly evolving, and it can only be as adequate as exists at the time. I believe that religion also evolves over time, but the latest religion, which I believe s the Bahai Faith, is adequate for the times we live in. In the future, when a new religion becomes necessary, God will send a new Messenger to reveal a new religion.
    Yes, it would be before the mid-1800s. I believe that the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new age of science, the likes of which humanity had ever before witnessed.

    What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

    We live in the most remarkable of times. The transformation of the material conditions of humanity has a cause. Do we really believe that the human beings who came before us were incapable of what we see in the world today? Great civilizations have come before in history – yet none of them broke out of the same reality that has existed since the dawn of agriculture.

    It is only in this time that humanity has passed into an entirely new reality. It has a cause. A cause larger than humanity itself.

    In 1844, in Shiraz, the Bab, Baha’u’llah’s immediate forerunner, spoke these words:

    The secret of the Day that is to come is now concealed. It can neither be divulged nor estimated. The newly born babe of that Day excels the wisest and most venerable men of this time, and the lowliest and most unlearned of that period shall surpass in understanding the most erudite and accomplished divines of this age.[1]

    A short time before, on the other side of the planet on 24 May 1844, within a day of the Bab’s declaration of his mission, Samuel Morse, the inventor of the telegraph sent its first message from Washington to Baltimore. The message read as follows: What hath God Wrought? , citing a passage from the Bible.


    Religion has evolved but as you said, the overwhelming majority of religious people belong to one of the major world religions which predate the 1500’s. Most people cling to those older religions because that is all they know about and/or they were raised to believe that are the only true religions.

    From my perspective as a Baha’i, time has marched on and the world has changed but the adherents to these older religions are stuck in the past, trying to apply a religion that was intended for past ages to the present age, as if stuck in a time warp.
    I agree with that if you are referring to the older religions. However, I believe the Baha’i Faith is the exception since it was revealed during the modern age of science. The older religions have become increasingly inadequate to meet the needs of modern times and show every indication that the trend will continue. Why would any logical person believe that a religion that was revealed hundreds or even thousands of years ago would be adequate to meet humanity’s needs forever? Yet that is what most religious people believe.
     
    #351 Trailblazer, Aug 22, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2022
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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  13. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    It’s not a phony conflict when you have rural conservative school boards promoting intelligent design and banning evolution in education.

    It’s not a phony conflict when you have the religious killing people who disagree with them.
     
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  14. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Science is up to the task of explaining anything that has empirical evidence for it.
     
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  15. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Good religion promotes
    1. brotherly love - When nations go to war, good religion does not compromise that loving brotherhood, by taking sides in the wars of the nations. John 13:35
    2. unity - Therefore are not divided internationally by race, nationality, or teachings, etc. 1 Corinthians 1:10
    3. God's high moral standards - This results in a clean people, and also saves lives. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 4:11-16

    There is more, but I will stop there, since the others are not given consideration in other religions, but Christianity.

    You have not seen this have you.
    That's because it's unique to only one group on earth.
     
  16. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    These people believe there is a conflict.

    They are wrong, imo.

    You are talking here about a conflict some religious people have with various scientific ideas. It doesn't mean such a conflict actually exists.
     
    #356 Rival, Aug 22, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
  17. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    There have been no scrolls, no tablets, no books dating contemporarily to the events described in the Exodus narratives.

    The oldest date-able “biblical” sources are the silver amulets with inscriptions of the Priestly Blessing (Numbers 6), which were found in a cave at Ketef Himmon, dated to some times between the late 7th century or early 6th century BCE.

    There are no Late Bronze Age (c 1550 - c 1050 BCE) original texts of the Genesis, Exodus, Numbers or Leviticus.

    There are also no 15th century BCE “outside” sources (eg Egyptian sources) to even support the existence of Moses or the Israelites living in Egypt during the early 18th dynasty, nor 14th century sources from the Canaanites of Joshua and the invasion of Canaan in this period.

    During the mid to late 15th century BCE, Egypt was ruled by the 18th dynasty king, Thutmose III (reign 1479 - 1425 BCE), where both Canaan and portion of Syria were parts of his empire. Thutmose was succeeded by his son Amenhotep II (1427 - 1401 BCE).

    Garrisons and Egyptian army in either reigns have never reported never any encounter with Israelites. Both father and son were at war with the Mitanni empire in northern Syria, during the 15th century BCE. Both Egypt and Mitanni (known as Naharin in Egyptian texts) have been vying for control over Canaan for decades.

    If Joshua took over the leadership of the Israelites in 1407 BCE, then the so-called battle of Jericho would have taken place either 1407 or 1406 BCE.

    If Israelites invaded the rest of Canaan after Jericho, don’t you think Amenhotep would have responded to the threat of Israelites encroaching on his territory?

    I think the story of Exodus was most likely started by the reign of King Josiah of Judah in the late 7th century BCE, but the oldest fragments of the Exodus are only found in the 6th century BCE (eg during the exile in Babylon and their return) and later (eg translation in Greek, the Septuagint, during the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE).

    There are no texts contemporary to either Moses and Joshua, probably because they were invented characters.
     
    #357 gnostic, Aug 22, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2022
  18. Dao Hao Now

    Dao Hao Now Member

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    May I ask what your point of view was before you became a Baha’i, and at what point in your life you “converted” to the Baha’i Faith?
    What was the reason to believe?
    Was there evidence involved?
    In my opinion, evidence sufficiently justifying beyond a reasonable doubt in an objective manner.
    I consider the claim “a god exists” in the real sense of actually existing, and not just as a construct of a human mind, to be an extraordinary claim since there has never been any objective evidence to indicate any merit to it and all the objective evidence suggests none is necessary in reality as we know it.
    So, in my opinion it would require extraordinary evidence, or at the very least evidence that conforms to the rigorous standards that any claim of it’s consequence should require.
    Obviously….thus my original observation that where we are likely to disagree is what evidence is sufficient.


    How would the arrival of a religious leader or two usher in a new age of science?
    Are you suggesting that science is dependent on religion to expand it’s knowledge?
     
  19. MixedMartialArts

    MixedMartialArts New Member

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    Yea of course, and as humans we’ve gotten decent at making these judgements about everyday items.

    Whichever way you slice it, it’s a gamble and humans do it all the time.

    it turns out faith in religion also has many recurring good things which trains us to trust it, just as each time we show up to get Sally it works great. No?
     
  20. MixedMartialArts

    MixedMartialArts New Member

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    Faith in an ancient text can certainly be delusion. I’ve no illusions about that.

    All I’m saying is, there are depths of knowledge in some ancient texts that still shape millions of repackaged self help, psychological books worth millions today.

    there’s something about the knowledge in those texts of old that cut deep to human nature and experience.

    it is when these teachings become transformative in a real way and a positive way, the connection of faith is formed.

    At this point supernatural isn’t needed entirely, for these positive effects to be experienced.

    it seems though, when a person accepts as well on faith the supernatural aspect, it can go different ways. Sideways, negative, positive etc

    you’re too smart to think I’m going to produce simple proof of supernatural. I never made that claim.

    I explained that faith is simply an integral part of human beings, in many aspects of life…
    and in regard to spirituality it becomes Uber murky. No disagreements there.
     
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