Do we live in a fine tuned universe

[QuestioningMind]

The more we learn about the universe, the more special we realize humanity and Earth are, I agree. The more we appreciate the excruciatingly fine engineering that allows our existence. I don't see how this is inconsistent with God though



That was certainly the Victorian age model, that a few 'immutable' classical laws. plus lots of time and space for them to bump around in, would be simply bound to produce some jolly interesting results eventually!

We know now that this is not true, everything from the first seconds, the expansion of the fabric of space time, to the formation of great fusion reactors in stars, producing just the right elements necessary for life, then dispersing them, were predetermined according to very specific instructions. Whether or not you believe those instructions were somehow created accidentally, they are necessary for us to be having this discussion.

Alter the universal constants infinitesimally, and no, you don't just get a slightly different universe where something interesting is also bound to happen eventually, you get an infinite number of eternally dark, cold, dimensionless, lifeless blobs.

How do you know that there aren't billions of such universes out there and this is one in which all the factors just happened to come together just right? After all, at one time we foolishly believed that there was just this one planet, but then we discovered we're just one among several planets in the solar system. Some felt certain that this was the one and only solar system... until we discovered it's actually just one among hundreds of billions of solar systems in the galaxy. Think there's just one galaxy? Turns out there's billions more of them in the universe as well. True, so far there's no hard evidence that billions upon billions of other universes exist, but looking at the track record, it's certainly reasonable to expect that someday we will.

 

[Kemosloby]

It's mostly fine tuned perfection, until you step on a slug with bare feet.

 

[Repox]

If you give it some thought, the universe is ideally suited for Satan. Satan is a dark evil spirit, the universe is composed of dark matter and energy. Satan is the destroyer, galaxies are on spiraling paths of destruction. Satan can jump into dark holes in the universe to generate his demon batteries. Then, Satan can feel powerful and in control as he zips around the universe.

 

[David T]

i see. Astro physicist Luke Barnes is speeking tonight at university of Texas Dallas on the subject. Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in. Psalm 65:8 would suggest there is awe in the sunrise and sunset that washes over those who see the handiwork of god.

Some have also pointed out that the earth is ideal for observing and discovery. Makes sense if the universe is on display for the glory of god

Sometimes. I have been working on string theory and wow it's so beautiful, sometimes. The problem I see with string theory is that moods play a big role but we have yet to discover any mood particles at Vern. So yea it might be an elegant beautiful theory but not predictive scientifically.

 

[David T]

Sometimes. I have been working on string theory and wow it's so beautiful, sometimes. The problem I see with string theory is that moods play a big role but we have yet to discover any mood particles at Vern. So yea it might be an elegant beautiful theory but not predictive scientifically. View attachment 16243

Some have asked what the hell is Vern. Vern is the local tavern where I do my particle physics research. I requested to do my studies at CERN but I was turned down because they didn't think the study of a drunken crowd, with great live music in the collider would present well to the public. I thought the acoustics would be awesome.

 

[David T]

You call this fine tuned?

Definitely a scientist doing emperical studies of gravity.

 

[arthra]

Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in.

I liked that sounds very Pythagorean...

"Whenever the sun of reality dawns, the lower sphere expresses the virtues of the highest world.
Why does not man harken to the soul-stirring music of the supreme concourse and not run wild with joy over the jarring notes of a street organ!
Strive day and night; perchance these sleeping ones may be awakened by the celestial strains of the city of melody and hear the soft, delicate music which is streaming down from the kingdom of El-Abha."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 76)

 

[siti]

So let me get this right...God fine-tuned the universe with such precision that the only way we can get enough elements heavier than Helium to make planets at all, let alone life, is for stars to explode under their own gravity scattering the stuff all over space and hoping that enough of it will clump together and then to deliver water to sustain life on those planets by having giant dirty snowballs crash into them unexpectedly every now and again completely obliterating any life that might already have been there...and then have the emergence of intelligent life completely dependent on the choice of sexual partner of unintelligent evolutionary ancestors...how is any of that 'fine-tuning'?

 

[sayak83]

So let me get this right...God fine-tuned the universe with such precision that the only way we can get enough elements heavier than Helium to make planets at all, let alone life, is for stars to explode under their own gravity scattering the stuff all over space and hoping that enough of it will clump together and then to deliver water to sustain life on those planets by having giant dirty snowballs crash into them unexpectedly every now and again completely obliterating any life that might already have been there...and then have the emergence of intelligent life completely dependent on the choice of sexual partner of unintelligent evolutionary ancestors...how is any of that 'fine-tuning'?

Here how to improve the universe.
Revised second law of thermodynamics:- Total Entropy is Conserved in any isolated system (via an entropy restoring field).
A universe with the revised second law will be more well tuned for complex systems to develop than the current one, including life.
Hence this is not a maximally tuned universe.
An omnipotent God will create a maximally tuned universe.
Thus an omnipotent God did not create the universe.
Proved.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do we live in a fine tuned universe

Clearly not. It is odd that people even ask.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

How do you know that there aren't billions of such universes out there and this is one in which all the factors just happened to come together just right? After all, at one time we foolishly believed that there was just this one planet, but then we discovered we're just one among several planets in the solar system. Some felt certain that this was the one and only solar system... until we discovered it's actually just one among hundreds of billions of solar systems in the galaxy. Think there's just one galaxy? Turns out there's billions more of them in the universe as well. True, so far there's no hard evidence that billions upon billions of other universes exist, but looking at the track record, it's certainly reasonable to expect that someday we will.

I take your point yes, it is not impossible that this universe happens to be finely tuned by chance, but I think we are past the Victorian age model, where a few simple 'untuned' and immutable laws will produce spectacular results given enough time and space. The information systems necessary for physics, life, to function were simply unfathomable 150 years ago.

It's an interesting question, but not only is there no evidence, 'multiverses' may well be inherently beyond the possibility of ever finding any, right?

I agree with Krauss on multiverses; 'If your theory requires an infinite probability machine, it's not entirely clear you even have a theory'

It also raises a paradox, that in order to ensure an entirely 'God-free' reality, this infinite probability generator would have to be equipped with a safety mechanism to prevent it ever creating anything that could be called God... Yet apparently, it was at least able to create sentient, insatiably creative beings, who would create a universe if they could, and have come a long way in reverse engineering one already..

 

[QuestioningMind]

I take your point yes, it is not impossible that this universe happens to be finely tuned by chance, but I think we are past the Victorian age model, where a few simple 'untuned' and immutable laws will produce spectacular results given enough time and space. The information systems necessary for physics, life, to function were simply unfathomable 150 years ago.

It's an interesting question, but not only is there no evidence, 'multiverses' may well be inherently beyond the possibility of ever finding any, right?

Your right, multiverses remain nothing but a mere hypothesis and will remain nothing but a mere hypothesis until those who propose the idea find a legitimate means of TESTING their claim. It's exactly like the hypothesis of God. It too will forever remain a mere unfounded hypothesis until those who propose it find a legitimate means of TESTING the claim.

I agree with Krauss on multiverses; 'If your theory requires an infinite probability machine, it's not entirely clear you even have a theory'

If your theory requires an all-powerful unmeasurable God, it's not entire clear that you have a theory.

It also raises a paradox, that in order to ensure an entirely 'God-free' reality, this infinite probability generator would have to be equipped with a safety mechanism to prevent it ever creating anything that could be called God... Yet apparently, it was at least able to create sentient, insatiably creative beings, who would create a universe if they could, and have come a long way in reverse engineering one
already..

No clue what you're attempting to say here. Active volcanoes have been called Gods before, but calling something a god does make make it so. And how exactly would an infinite probability generator that created the universe create a God that's defined as the creator of all things? You're not making sense.

 

[Milton Platt]

i see. Astro physicist Luke Barnes is speeking tonight at university of Texas Dallas on the subject. Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in. Psalm 65:8 would suggest there is awe in the sunrise and sunset that washes over those who see the handiwork of god.

Some have also pointed out that the earth is ideal for observing and discovery. Makes sense if the universe is on display for the glory of god

When you find another universe to compare it against, maybe we can find out.

 

[Milton Platt]

Because it was made for gods glory not man's convenience

So it is fine tuned for a god, then?

 

[Valjean]

Isn't the statistical chance of rolling a dozen 6s exactly the same as the chance of rolling any other combination?

 

[ArtieE]

It also raises a paradox, that in order to ensure an entirely 'God-free' reality, this infinite probability generator would have to be equipped with a safety mechanism to prevent it ever creating anything that could be called God... Yet apparently, it was at least able to create sentient, insatiably creative beings, who would create a universe if they could, and have come a long way in reverse engineering one already..

There's no paradox. If there are an infinite number of universes there may be an infinite number of different gods. For all we know one or several gods may have created and is creating an infinite number of different universes which themselves give rise to an infinite number of other gods.

 

[Milton Platt]

There's no paradox. If there are an infinite number of universes there may be an infinite number of different gods. For all we know one or several gods may have created and is creating an infinite number of different universes which themselves give rise to an infinite number of other gods.

Why assume any gods at all are involved. What's wrong with just saying we don't know?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

There's no paradox. If there are an infinite number of universes there may be an infinite number of different gods. For all we know one or several gods may have created and is creating an infinite number of different universes which themselves give rise to an infinite number of other gods.

That would be my point yes.

Andre Linde, principle in modern inflation theory, considers it 'feasible' that we could one day create our own universe, and it is 'possible' that this is how ours came about. That's just one form of ID, which could create universes at a far higher success rate than a trial and error 'natural' mechanism creating infinite duds

so how do we conclude that ours must be the virgin birth, immaculate conception, original, completely natural universe, rather than the common or garden God created variety?

- Isn't that special pleading and sort of arrogant?

 

[ArtieE]

Why assume any gods at all are involved. What's wrong with just saying we don't know?

Nothing wrong with just saying "we don't know". That's what agnostics say. Atheists don't believe any gods are involved.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Why assume any gods at all are involved. What's wrong with just saying we don't know?

Well ask yourself, why don't you?

Same here, we are curious enough to ponder it and form opinions on what we see as the most likely explanation