Do we live in a fine tuned universe

[whirlingmerc]

i see. Astro physicist Luke Barnes is speeking tonight at university of Texas Dallas on the subject. Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in. Psalm 65:8 would suggest there is awe in the sunrise and sunset that washes over those who see the handiwork of god.

Some have also pointed out that the earth is ideal for observing and discovery. Makes sense if the universe is on display for the glory of god

 

[Quintessence]

Not at all how I see things. Also not clear on what it is you want to discuss in a comparative religion context.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Just like a hole is fine-tuned for the puddle of water that fills it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is based upon order, somewhat like a puddle yes. Things do not happen in a random way but tend to be caused by other things. There are physical laws.

 

[George-ananda]

I see the universe as a fined-tuned emanation of the God/Brahman too complex to even fully appreciate from out very limited perspective.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

i see. Astro physicist Luke Barnes is speeking tonight at university of Texas Dallas on the subject. Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in. Psalm 65:8 would suggest there is awe in the sunrise and sunset that washes over those who see the handiwork of god.

Ever since the discovery of quantum mechanics, universal constants, DNA etc, there's not much debating this point now- In fact it became the explicit rationale for the introduction atheist 'multiverse' models, that you would need some sort of infinite probability generator to account for this universe appearing accidentally

some have also pointed out that the earth is ideal for observing and discovery. Makes sense if the universe is on display for the glory of god

Yes, and again even atheist scientists have remarked on how curious it is, that the universe so lends itself to our exploration, investigation, understanding, learning

what better way to appreciate anything?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

i see. Astro physicist Luke Barnes is speeking tonight at university of Texas Dallas on the subject. Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in. Psalm 65:8 would suggest there is awe in the sunrise and sunset that washes over those who see the handiwork of god.

The fine tuning argument has always struck me as ridiculous. I've never seen anyone make the leap from "the universe is exactly the way it is" to "the universe was created to be this way intentionally" in anything approaching a rational way.

Some have also pointed out that the earth is ideal for observing and discovery.

Compared to what?

Makes sense if the universe is on display for the glory of god

... and if God is an anthropomorhism based on the ideals of oxygen-breathing, social bipeds living at the bottom of a gravity well.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Did a fine-tuned universe raise Jesus from the dead?

Because if the universe is fine-tuned, then how can a god intervene?

If god does intervene, then he must change the variables of fine tuning to do so, right?

So either:

1. There's fine tuning or 2. There are miracles and interventions that necessarily violate it all the time.

I don't believe in either, but even if I believed in one of the, I'd have to understand that logically I couldn't believe both.

 

[sayak83]

i see. Astro physicist Luke Barnes is speeking tonight at university of Texas Dallas on the subject. Seems to me the universe is fine tuned in many ways : glory is baked in. Psalm 65:8 would suggest there is awe in the sunrise and sunset that washes over those who see the handiwork of god.

Some have also pointed out that the earth is ideal for observing and discovery. Makes sense if the universe is on display for the glory of god

No. Fine tuning is theological nonsense. If God created all reality and all its laws etc., they won't need fine-tuning. A fine-tuned universe would be evidence for a pre-existent chaotic reality that was then shaped by an middlingly powerful god-being for its own purposes. If proved, this would be evidence for alternate theological worldviews (polytheism, Buddhism etc.).

 

[Jumi]

We feel it's finely tuned when things work out for us, but many mythologies are born from when it doesn't. Much of the blessings of nature are due to human handiwork. The feeling that it's tuned is just a feeling, not what facts say. The truth is we live in a hostile universe that we as humans have managed to carve out a remarkably comfortable existence out of the hard work and hard thinking of our ancestors. If we lived as people did 10000 or even 500, 100 years ago, it would not have been an easy life.

 

[whirlingmerc]

No. Fine tuning is theological nonsense. If God created all reality and all its laws etc., they won't need fine-tuning. A fine-tuned universe would be evidence for a pre-existent chaotic reality that was then shaped by an middlingly powerful god-being for its own purposes. If proved, this would be evidence for alternate theological worldviews (polytheism, Buddhism etc.).

Although I would say a good universe but sin broken. A third view. Fine tuned for gods glory even in the brokenness

 

[sayak83]

Although I would say a good universe but sin broken. A third view. Fine tuned for gods glory even in the brokenness

The universe and its laws have existed at least for 13 billion years and the humans have existed for the 200,000 years. The latter cannot explain the former.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The universe and its laws have existed at least for 13 billion years and the humans have existed for the 200,000 years. The latter cannot explain the former.

Humans have been around for thousands not millions in my view

 

[Nietzsche]

Ever since the discovery of quantum mechanics, universal constants, DNA etc, there's not much debating this point now- In fact it became the explicit rationale for the introduction atheist 'multiverse' models, that you would need some sort of infinite probability generator to account for this universe appearing accidentally

Which is why 99.9999999%+ of the universe is utterly uninhabitable for carbon-based life, right?

Yes, and again even atheist scientists have remarked on how curious it is, that the universe so lends itself to our exploration, investigation, understanding, learning

what better way to appreciate anything?

Curious? We exist in a portion of the universe that isn't utterly hostile to life. The Universe is a probability generator. All the processes and such that took place here on Earth have taken place everywhere else too, and probably failed the over-whelming majority of the time. But due to the sheer size of the universe you're bound to have a few areas where something worked.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Which is why 99.9999999%+ of the universe is utterly uninhabitable for carbon-based life, right?


Curious? We exist in a portion of the universe that isn't utterly hostile to life. The Universe is a probability generator. All the processes and such that took place here on Earth have taken place everywhere else too, and probably failed the over-whelming majority of the time. But due to the sheer size of the universe you're bound to have a few areas where something worked.

Because it was made for gods glory not man's convenience

 

[sayak83]

Humans have been around for thousands not millions in my view

Humans? Or the universe?
Universe - 13.8 billion years old at least
Humans - 200,000 years old.

The fine-tuning argument is based on and requires the current understanding of modern cosmology whose observations clearly shows that the universe is at least that old and all the laws of physics including the supposed fine-tuning issues are also that old. Humans by contrast have been here for only the past 200,000 years at most. So nothing regarding actions of humanity can be used to explain the supposed problems of fine tuning.

If you do not believe that the universe is that old, you are basically rejecting the entirety of cosmology and astronomy and astro-physical sciences and you have no business talking about things that require a prior acceptance of the conclusions of these sciences.

 

[Nietzsche]

Because it was made for gods glory not man's convenience

That's your answer, yes.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Fine tuned for what?

 

[Sunstone]

Fine tuned for what?

As anyone who thinks about it can see, the universe is fine tuned for erotic dancing girls. All of human history points to the fact that we have arrived at this place in time in order to make strip joints viable. That was the real, hidden purpose behind the invention of such things as the stage, electric lighting, and loud, popular music.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

As anyone who thinks about it can see, the universe is fine tuned for erotic dancing girls. All of human history points to the fact that we have arrived at this place in time in order to make strip joints viable. That was the real, hidden purpose behind the invention of such things as the stage, electric lighting, and loud, popular music.

You call this fine tuned?