Do we have a moral crisis?

[Hockeycowboy]

The "funny" thing about rape in the Ancient Hebrew society is that it isn't so much a crime committed against a woman or a girl, it's a crime committed against her father. The consent of a woman to any sexual activity or matrimony is appreciated but not essential.

Not quite.
Deuteronomy 22:25-26...”But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26“But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.“

Exodus 22:16-17 reveals the father’s part...”Suppose a young woman has never had sex and isn't engaged. If a man talks her into having sex, he must pay the bride price+ and marry her. But if her father refuses to let her marry the man, the bride price must still be paid.” (Side point: Shechem did this to Dinah - Exodus 34...but the Bible calls it rape.)

So the father could refuse.
Question, do you think a loving father would let a violent rapist take his daughter as wife?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If you speak about "muslims" who blow them self up to hurt others, the do not hold any form of morality, spiritual or non spiritual. and they are not following Islam. So even you think they are muslims, they are not, they are only evil beings.

Ha ha, and there it is. In poker, they call this a "tell".

 

[Spirit of Light]

Ha ha, and there it is. In poker, they call this a "tell".

I dont play poker, never have and never will.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I dont play poker, never have and never will.

Whooosh!

 

[PureX]

Sorry, I think I was unclear.
Yes, I agree with you, but my question really was 'Do you see our morality as worse than it was in previous moments in history or do you see our morality as being unimproved, despite the fact we should have more knowledge about things like global harm, and more awareness of the ability of morally dubious decisions to have global impacts.'

For me, I am frustrated that we don't seem more moral than we are, and we don't seem more moral than we were.
We could do more to help people than was previously possible, and we can do more to harm people than was previously possible, hence my linking of technical capability. But our morality seems to remain kind of myopic and primitive in many ways.
I don't think we're morally worse than previously (in a broad-brush, generalisation sense).

Hope that clarifies what I meant (whether you agree or not is obviously perfectly fine).

I have no way of ascertaining the moral state of people in the distant past. But I suspect that when we lived in small tribes, depending upon each other for our survival, our moral behavior toward others was far superior to what it is now, simply because our lives depended on it. And because we could not hide, nor hide from the repercussions of our own immoral behavior toward others. And a similar close relationship existed with our environment, such that we would have been more observant and concerned with our effect on the world around us, as we would have suffered the consequences directly, had we abused it.

I think our increasing immorality toward each other, and toward our environment, has occurred in large part because our relationships with both our fellow humans and our environment have become perceptually more distant, and more abstract. Which makes it easier for us to abuse them and ignore the repercussions of our doing so. Which is rather bizarre considering that we are now MORE interdependent as a species than ever before for nearly everything we need to survive and thrive as individuals. And yet we are perceiving ourselves as being totally independent 'lone wolves', more now than ever before in our history.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Hope you're all well.

Here is an interesting blog at a psych site ...

Scroll down to this list -

There is a —

Moral crisis when there is no objective standard for truth-telling

Moral crisis when success is more important than character

Moral crisis when because of their positions we look to celebrities and business people for wisdom

Moral crisis when we believe we are more important than others

Moral crisis when we believe we are less important than others

Moral crisis when we believe we can flourish alone, without others

Read the rest here -

Today's Spiritual Crisis

Cheers!

Well I would rather live in this day and age than in Ancient Rome or Ancient Greece or some other country.

I don't even want to think what went on in the Middle Ages either.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The comfortable world of the wealthy and titled classes came to an end in 1914, and what was left of it was destroyed in 1939-45.
How ever the world of the poor and working class hardly changed at all. and in some respects actually improved.

Women moved into skilled employment, during both wars. In many countries health services were introduced following WW2.
The movement to equality both for women and people of Colour started to bare fruit.

Between those two events we had the financial crash and universal unemployment and financial ruin for everyone.
These events seemed to bring out the worst in very many people. and greed and accumulation of wealth, and political power, and crime lords became the driving force for the newly established masters.

Today Moral decay, corruption and criminal greed permeates the entire political and business/ financial world, and has become the normal accepted behaviour of the wealthy and influential.
They now Own the entire machinery of Government, police and justice and also mass religious organisations.

There is no longer any interest, at the top level, to do anything about the many mounting crises in the world.
We can expect only increasing numbers of world disasters to follow one another, until one of sufficient seriousness destroys the present establishments. Only in these Ashes can a phoenix emerge.

 

[PureX]

There is no longer any interest, at the top level, to do anything about the many mounting crises in the world.
We can expect only increasing numbers of world disasters to follow one another, until one of sufficient seriousness destroys the present establishments. Only in these Ashes can a phoenix emerge.

If there are any of us left to emerge. Our ability to absorb these total social collapses into chaos and anarchy is running out. Sooner or later some insane despot is going to push the 'total annihilation' button and that will be the end of humanity ... because we were just not able to cooperate as a species, rather than compete.

 

[epronovost]

So the father could refuse.
Question, do you think a loving father would let a violent rapist take his daughter as wife?

Considering that a woman who has been raped cannot be married as a virgin and thus loose an enormous amount of status, this is a tough situation for any father. His daughter having sex with someone without his consent and without being married brings a certain amount of shame and dishonor. Such disobediance could be punished by death and it sometimes did in the past. A loving father might have no other choice but to marry his daughter to her rapist to make sure she has someone to provide for her and to limit the damage to his reputation and that of the familly in general. The other options aren't that good either. It's basically selling his daughter into prostitution or hoping for a small miracle and that a decent party remains interested in sullied woman.

As for ''loving fathers'', considering the level of sexual segregation in Ancient Hebrew society, fathers spend relatively little time with their daughters and don't really participate in their upbringing. There were relatively few occasions for a father to develop a truly close bond with his daughters, especially the younger ones. Most rapes today aren't violent either. Would a loving father protect his daughter at the risk of his own reputation should his daughter have been raped without the use of physical force, especially considering the most likely rapist is probably a friend, a neighbour, a cousin or a social better?

 

[columbus]

The "funny" thing about rape in the Ancient Hebrew society is that it isn't so much a crime committed against a woman or a girl, it's a crime committed against her father. The consent of a woman to any sexual activity or matrimony is appreciated but not essential. There is no such thing as marital rape for example.

And rape has changed during my lifetime.
Rape used to be a violent crime, barely short of murder. Now, if someone gets drunk promising sex to whoever buys drinks, then forgets to change their mind later, they're a rape victim.

The definition of rape has changed in the last few decades almost as much as in the previous two thousand years.
Tom

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Considering that a woman who has been raped cannot be married as a virgin and thus loose an enormous amount of status, this is a tough situation for any father. His daughter having sex with someone without his consent and without being married brings a certain amount of shame and dishonor. Such disobediance could be punished by death and it sometimes did in the past. A loving father might have no other choice but to marry his daughter to her rapist to make sure she has someone to provide for her and to limit the damage to his reputation and that of the familly in general. The other options aren't that good either. It's basically selling his daughter into prostitution or hoping for a small miracle and that a decent party remains interested in sullied woman.

As for ''loving fathers'', considering the level of sexual segregation in Ancient Hebrew society, fathers spend relatively little time with their daughters and don't really participate in their upbringing. There were relatively few occasions for a father to develop a truly close bond with his daughters, especially the younger ones. Most rapes today aren't violent either. Would a loving father protect his daughter at the risk of his own reputation should his daughter have been raped without the use of physical force, especially considering the most likely rapist is probably a friend, a neighbour, a cousin or a social better?

How many people actually marry a virgin? Or even give it a second thought? There is no special value in virginity, and it has nothing to do with the honour of the father nor anyone else.

Anyone who rapes should be treated like the criminal that they are, and locked away till they are no longer a danger to other women.
They should never be handed their victim to be abused again, that is criminal.

Father's who hand their daughters to rapists or otherwise hurt them are equally criminal and should locked away for many years.

 

[epronovost]

How many people actually marry a virgin? Or even give it a second thought? There is no special value in virginity, and it has nothing to do with the honour of the father nor anyone else.

Anyone who rapes should be treated like the criminal that they are, and locked away till they are no longer a danger to other women.
They should never be handed their victim to be abused again, that is criminal.

Father's who hand their daughters to rapists or otherwise hurt them are equally criminal and should locked away for many years.

We were having a conversation about historical perception of sexual violence and matrimony rules. In modern days and from any humanist and feminist perspective such values are indeed appalling, but they were nevertheless common in our past.

 

[epronovost]

. Now, if someone gets drunk promising sex to whoever buys drinks, then forgets to change their mind later, they're a rape victim.

This mix of victim blaming and hyperbole is profoundly disturbing in my opinion.

 

[columbus]

This mix of victim blaming and hyperbole is profoundly disturbing in my opinion.

Doubtless.
But it's still true.
It happens altogether too often. And gets mixed into the violent rape statistics.

Tom

 

[epronovost]

And gets mixed into the violent rape statistics.

Tom

Because they are rapes and rapes are by their very nature violent act. The fact you seem to consider them as ''not as bad'' or even excusable or perhapse even justifiable is concerning.

 

[columbus]

Because they are rapes and rapes are by their very nature violent act. The fact you seem to consider them as ''not as bad'' or even excusable or perhapse even justifiable is concerning.

No they're not, anymore.
A person can promise sex in exchange for goods and services, then refuse to pay up. That's not rape.
Not in my book.
Tom

 

[julianalexander745]

And rape has changed during my lifetime.
Rape used to be a violent crime, barely short of murder. Now, if someone gets drunk promising sex to whoever buys drinks, then forgets to change their mind later, they're a rape victim.

The definition of rape has changed in the last few decades almost as much as in the previous two thousand years.
Tom

A similar case can be made for what has happened to the standard for domestic violence.

At one point, it was a seriously sadistic, even psychopathic crime that involved men abusing their power in pre-1960s marriages to inflict severe, ongoing violence and fear.

Nowadays, prisons are filled with men who got into a drunken screaming match with their also-drunk female partner - police are called and charges are thrown at them without due discretion.

 

[julianalexander745]

No they're not, anymore.
A person can promise sex in exchange for goods and services, then refuse to pay up. That's not rape.
Not in my book.
Tom

Or a person can be intoxicated and give consent only to wake up the next morning and cry rape to save face.

Happens all the time on college campuses which are, ironically, the safest places for any young women to be when it comes to avoiding rape.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Climate change denier, trumpette and domestic violence/rape apologist?

 

[epronovost]

No they're not, anymore.
A person can promise sex in exchange for goods and services, then refuse to pay up. That's not rape.
Not in my book.
Tom

I would consider your book immoral and illegal as it doesn't respect the axiom of clear informed consent. People can change their mind if they want to. There is nothing wrong with that. It also make sex and relationship purely transactional all the while not providing the framework and sexurity surrounding purely transactional actions.