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Do we have a moral crisis?

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I think you're indulging in the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You don't think that suicide bombers are devout Muslims because they don't behave the way you think a devout Muslim ought to behave. I disagree vehemently.

I think that anyone who would consider becoming a suicide bomber is mentally ill. In a group as large as Muslims there's going to be mentally ill people who are also devout. And other devoutly religious people who will exploit the mentally ill.

Pretending that these people aren't devoutly religious is to completely misunderstand the human situation in general, and religiosity in particular.
Tom
It is a different in being devoted to a political issue like the terrorists are (in my understanding they only use the religion as a shield)
To be a true religious person one must follow the teaching very seriously and become the teaching. meaning one must only focus on the spiritual development, and then one would not see terror as a right way to get their view out. Their view actually only mean something to them self. not to the rest of the people who do not follow their path.

Spiritual life is a life looking within our self. meaning according to the teaching "am I doing the right action, speech, and thoughts toward my self or others) so if we do not do this all the time, how can we say we follow the teaching a it was meant to be?
(I do not always live up to this, so yes i struggle from time to time my self to be a good spiritual person)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Interesting point. Do you see that as morality or technical capacity?
It's clearly a moral problem. We have the ability to feed every human on the planet, and even to offer every human good basic health care. We have the ability to design and construct super efficient communities that would provide a very comfortable life for the humans living in them. We have the intellectual sophistication to design systems of governance that would provide maximum security, opportunity, and individual freedom to all citizens. And we have had these technical capabilities for some time, now.

But that's not what we choose to do with them. Instead, we choose to see ourselves as being in competition with every other human on Earth for what we need and want, to live. Such that we think we need to destroy these 'enemies' before they destroy us, to ensure our own survival. We use our technical prowess to create ever more effective means and methods of killing, maiming, and causing great harm and suffering to one another. And now even to the entire ecosystem. And so far, our obsession with self-centered control over everything and everyone around us shows no sign of leading us into a mindset of unity and cooperation, for the betterment of all involved. Just the opposite. The better we get at killing each other, the more we think we need to arm ourselves to the teeth so we can kill the other guy, first. And the idiocy and violence, then, just continue to escalate.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
and making your daughter's rapist make an honest woman of her...

Really, it was seduction. Not rape.

Read about Dinah and Shechem, in Genesis 34.
He seduced her, but the Hebrew writings called it rape...it violated her innocence. She wasn’t hurt...the text said he “kept speaking persuasively to her”, he wanted to marry her.

So in the Hebrew Bible, while rape can mean a violent act (which in the Mosaic Law resulted in death - Deuteronomy 22:25-26), it can also refer to seduction.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
It is a different in being devoted to a political issue like the terrorists are (in my understanding they only use the religion as a shield)
The concept of separation of church and state is a new fangled secular view. Religion and politics have always been mixed together, near inextricably.
I think that the problem with Islam is that it's so fundamentally conservative. It's well designed to suit the purposes of authoritarian leaders, like Abrahamic religion always has been. Islam is not well suited to modern "innovations" like basic human rights or representative government or global ethical codes.

ISIS is more resembling true Islam than modern liberal Muslims who have adopted secular values like women's rights and democracy and such.
Tom
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
The concept of separation of church and state is a new fangled secular view. Religion and politics have always been mixed together, near inextricably.
I think that the problem with Islam is that it's so fundamentally conservative. It's well designed to suit the purposes of authoritarian leaders, like Abrahamic religion always has been. Islam is not well suited to modern "innovations" like basic human rights or representative government or global ethical codes.

ISIS is more resembling true Islam than modern liberal Muslims who have adopted secular values like women's rights and democracy and such.
Tom
Actually spiritual lifestyle (cultivation of mind and body) was not intended to be a part of politics, but as i said earlier human beings after the enlighten beings misunderstood and mixed it in to politics, culture and religion. Religion as we see it today i human made. where as Cultivation of mind and body does come directly from the truth (God, Buddha, consciousness)
When human misunderstand and use the ego/self to put their understanding of the truth, it will become less of a truth and it will then lead toward lesser morality
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Really, it was seduction. Not rape.

Read about Dinah and Shechem, in Genesis 34.
He seduced her, but the Hebrew writings called it rape...it violated her innocence. She wasn’t hurt...the text said he “kept speaking persuasively to her”, he wanted to marry her.

So in the Hebrew Bible, while rape can mean a violent act (which in the Mosaic Law resulted in death - Deuteronomy 22:25-26), it can also refer to seduction.

Acutally no, it could be rape too. This kind of law was common at the time and in the region. Several countries in the region still have such laws on the book and a few of them have repealed them in 2016 to 2018 after a lot of pressure from feminist groups.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Actually spiritual lifestyle (cultivation of mind and body) was not intended to be a part of politics, but as i said earlier human beings after the enlighten beings misunderstood and mixed it in to politics, culture and religion.
You say this, but I see no reason to believe it. I realize that you do, but I think you're wrong.
You're being misled by old texts that are mostly fiction.
Tom
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Hope you're all well.

Here is an interesting blog at a psych site ...

Scroll down to this list -

There is a —

Moral crisis when there is no objective standard for truth-telling

Moral crisis when success is more important than character

Moral crisis when because of their positions we look to celebrities and business people for wisdom

Moral crisis when we believe we are more important than others

Moral crisis when we believe we are less important than others

Moral crisis when we believe we can flourish alone, without others

Read the rest here -

Today's Spiritual Crisis

Cheers!
Are we going to discuss a moral crisis or a spiritual crises? You header says Moral Crises. the link says Spiritual Crisis.

Just asking. I have no idea what a spiritual crisis is.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The moral decline in human beings are fading all the time after an enlighten master like Buddha or Christ has been teaching. So you can say that when one of the masters (enlighten beings) leave earth when they die, the people who have been following the teachings start to lose the understanding of the teaching with in a few hundred years. and this is the time of decline in my view.

But if you want it on a personal level one person at the time. it comes down to how much each person put in of effort to stay on a higher moral level without declining. But because of how society is built up now (started with the industrial revolution) this is a main reason why peoples moral decline. Humans get attached to object they can buy with money (and to the money it self), and they forget the moral teaching of the enlighten masters and they become more and more atheistic (not an attack on atheists) And when people have less spiritual awareness they stop caring if they do immoral action words or thoughts. (that is the true moral decline)

So...which year? 0?
 

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
Are we going to discuss a moral crisis or a spiritual crises? You header says Moral Crises. the link says Spiritual Crisis.

Just asking. I have no idea what a spiritual crisis is.

Good question.

I was originally looking for sites about spiritual crisis and that is what popped up. We can discuss either - one could say they are related and interconnected.

Let me know if I am making any sense - it is 3 am and I am wide awake as often happens ...

Thanks to all the other replies - I have yet 2 read them all.

Just out of curiosity if you was looking for spiritual crisis sites - here is a site simply called "Am I going mad" - I think that is more the kind of site I was originally searching for ...

Spiritual Emergency Explained

Wishing you all the best!

:)
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Good question.

I was originally looking for sites about spiritual crisis and that is what popped up. We can discuss either - one could say they are related and interconnected.

Let me know if I am making any sense - it is 3 am and I am wide awake as often happens ...

Thanks to all the other replies - I have yet 2 read them all.

Just out of curiosity if you was looking for spiritual crisis sites - here is a site simply called "Am I going mad" - I think that is more the kind of site I was originally searching for ...

Spiritual Emergency Explained

Wishing you all the best!

:)

Had to look up transpersonal phsychology. Sounds like woo. What the heck is "spiritual"?
 

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
Had to look up transpersonal phsychology. Sounds like woo. What the heck is "spiritual"?

Another good question :)

A spiritual crisis or awakening is a relatively rare event but certain people do believe it will become more common.

Believe me - if you are confused that is nothing compared with the kind of confusion I have experienced since my initial awakening experience - I would have said I am the last person on this planet who would ever have such an experience.

I hope I am making sense - it is hard to tell much of the time.

Anyway, wishing you all the best and keep on asking if i haven't made myself clear - some experiences are hard to describe in conventional language.

As for transpersonal psychology -

Try this site -

6 Facts About Transpersonal Psychology

Not sure that we are still on the topic of "moral crisis" but them's the breaks I suppose

Cheers!

:)
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It's clearly a moral problem. We have the ability to feed every human on the planet, and even to offer every human good basic health care. We have the ability to design and construct super efficient communities that would provide a very comfortable life for the humans living in them. We have the intellectual sophistication to design systems of governance that would provide maximum security, opportunity, and individual freedom to all citizens. And we have had these technical capabilities for some time, now.

But that's not what we choose to do with them. Instead, we choose to see ourselves as being in competition with every other human on Earth for what we need and want, to live. Such that we think we need to destroy these 'enemies' before they destroy us, to ensure our own survival. We use our technical prowess to create ever more effective means and methods of killing, maiming, and causing great harm and suffering to one another. And now even to the entire ecosystem. And so far, our obsession with self-centered control over everything and everyone around us shows no sign of leading us into a mindset of unity and cooperation, for the betterment of all involved. Just the opposite. The better we get at killing each other, the more we think we need to arm ourselves to the teeth so we can kill the other guy, first. And the idiocy and violence, then, just continue to escalate.

Sorry, I think I was unclear.
Yes, I agree with you, but my question really was 'Do you see our morality as worse than it was in previous moments in history or do you see our morality as being unimproved, despite the fact we should have more knowledge about things like global harm, and more awareness of the ability of morally dubious decisions to have global impacts.'

For me, I am frustrated that we don't seem more moral than we are, and we don't seem more moral than we were.
We could do more to help people than was previously possible, and we can do more to harm people than was previously possible, hence my linking of technical capability. But our morality seems to remain kind of myopic and primitive in many ways.
I don't think we're morally worse than previously (in a broad-brush, generalisation sense).

Hope that clarifies what I meant (whether you agree or not is obviously perfectly fine).
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I think I was unclear.
Yes, I agree with you, but my question really was 'Do you see our morality as worse than it was in previous moments in history or do you see our morality as being unimproved, despite the fact we should have more knowledge about things like global harm, and more awareness of the ability of morally dubious decisions to have global impacts.'

For me, I am frustrated that we don't seem more moral than we are, and we don't seem more moral than we were.
We could do more to help people than was previously possible, and we can do more to harm people than was previously possible, hence my linking of technical capability. But our morality seems to remain kind of myopic and primitive in many ways.
I don't think we're morally worse than previously (in a broad-brush, generalisation sense).

Hope that clarifies what I meant (whether you agree or not is obviously perfectly fine).

As I asked in a previous post: How do we measure morality? Do we do it abstractly or concretely?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Really, it was seduction. Not rape.

Read about Dinah and Shechem, in Genesis 34.
He seduced her, but the Hebrew writings called it rape...it violated her innocence. She wasn’t hurt...the text said he “kept speaking persuasively to her”, he wanted to marry her.

So in the Hebrew Bible, while rape can mean a violent act (which in the Mosaic Law resulted in death - Deuteronomy 22:25-26), it can also refer to seduction.

Hi mate,

Appreciate you expressing how you see it. I'm happy to withdraw my comment. It was a cheap throwaway line and I shouldn't have included it. I'm not going to pretend to have studied the Hebrew enough to know if your point is valid or not, so given that it wasn't a thoughtful contribution on my part, I apologize. Still owe you a response to your other, longer post, which I'll get to at some point today I hope!
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
As I asked in a previous post: How do we measure morality? Do we do it abstractly or concretely?

In my opinion?
I don't think we can measure it concretely. I think it is possible to point to some concrete measures as 'signposts', but I would argue it's all very subjective. It's one of the reasons I tend to push back pretty hard when people decry about 'reducing morality'. It is often a self-serving position based on a pre-existing religious view.
In short, take the same person and drop them in the 1950's they might very well be decrying 'reducing morality'. Put them in the 1500's, same thing.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hi mate,

Appreciate you expressing how you see it. I'm happy to withdraw my comment. It was a cheap throwaway line and I shouldn't have included it. I'm not going to pretend to have studied the Hebrew enough to know if your point is valid or not, so given that it wasn't a thoughtful contribution on my part, I apologize. Still owe you a response to your other, longer post, which I'll get to at some point today I hope!
No, I’m glad you did, actually. I’ve been meaning to address the issue of rape, in the Bible. Many times, even if a person doesn’t understand the Hebrew or Greek rendering, the context will clear it up.

In reading the entire account about Dinah and Shechem, in Genesis 34, it’s easy to see that he didn’t physically hurt her...he just took her virginity (seduced her)...but the Bible still calls it rape.

Take care, hope you’ve been safe from the fires.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
In reading the entire account about Dinah and Shechem, in Genesis 34, it’s easy to see that he didn’t physically hurt her...he just took her virginity (seduced her)...but the Bible still calls it rape.

The "funny" thing about rape in the Ancient Hebrew society is that it isn't so much a crime committed against a woman or a girl, it's a crime committed against her father. The consent of a woman to any sexual activity or matrimony is appreciated but not essential. There is no such thing as marital rape for example.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hope you're all well.
Hello Geoff......
The word 'Moral' is just an 'it' word, an impostor, imo. Let's see......

Moral crisis when there is no objective standard for truth-telling
What? Here is a delightful way of preparing to get away with lies!

Moral crisis when success is more important than character
No. We understand situations where deception was absolutely necessary for survival (success) in horrible wars.

Moral crisis when because of their positions we look to celebrities and business people for wisdom .
No. Successful celebrities and business people are often wise. This imposing tenet could produce an illogical situation where we automatically throw lots of wisdom in the dustbin.

Moral crisis when we believe we are more important than others
No. Bigotry is just bigotry. No need for any filling-words like 'moral'


Moral crisis when we believe we are less important than others [/QUOTE}
No. To call a person with no confidence immoral is just an outrage.

Moral crisis when we believe we can flourish alone, without others
No. So John the Baptist was immoral?

And there is the real joke, a linking of 'spiritual' with 'moral'.
This an absolute cultural deception.

And so...... No.
But the thread is interesting, Geoff..... :)
 
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