DO U SAY JESUS IS "GOD" (IF U SAY SO THEN BIBLE DISAGREE WITH U)

[Ronald]

What it boils down to is this, the Christian confession of the Lordship of Jesus is inextricably linked with the Christian belief in the Trinity, for Jesus' place in saving history makes sense only insofar as he has been sent by the Father, and together with the Father, sends the Holy Spirit to heal, to renew, and to reconcile all that has been wounded by sin. The Christian understanding of God, in other words, cannot be expressed fully, let alone explained, apart from the doctrine of the Trinity and the person and work of Jesus Christ.

"It is impossible to believe explicityly in the mystery of Christ without faith in the Trinity, for the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh, that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and, again, that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit."(St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologia, II-II, q.2,a.8)

Without the concept of the divinity of Christ, Christianity becomes no more than a cult following of a "wise human teacher".... or it goes in the other direction and vaults Christ to God and becomes Christomonism.... the uniqueness of Christ, indeed that of Christianity, is that Christ is rooted in his consubstantial union with God the Father. An understanding of that uniqueness must, in turn, presuppose an understanding of God as triune.

It is not faith in the abstract concept of Trinity... it is not faith in a Church dogma... it is the very notion that God incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, is our Lord and Savior, redeemer of all mandkind that makes understanding God as truine the cornerstone of Christianity.

Anything else is just not Christianity... sorry.

Michel, What did I tell you! Scott says you aint Christian unless you believe in his DOGma! FALSE! There is no way under the sun that Scott can keep me from entering the kingdom of God. Only in his mind.
Thank God I am not a Christian, trying to block the door to the kingdom, allowing only my cronnies who I choose to come in!Glory be to El Shaddai it is He who chooses.

If any of those who think they are Holier than Thou, get in, rest assured those who believe in the simple/p'shat meaning of the bible will have a place in the world to come.
Being "Least in the kingdom" will never be my goal.

Remember, Michel, I told everyone that the only thing you can't be is Christian! Scott confirms that.

 

[Scott1]

Michel, What did I tell you! Scott says you aint Christian unless you believe in his DOGma! FALSE! There is no way under the sun that Scott can keep me from entering the kingdom of God. Only in his mind.

Holy prozac, Batman!

Ronald, I believe Michel is a Christian... and have made no judgments about who or who does not enter the kingdom of God.

I pray the Holy Spirit brings peace to your obviously troubled soul.:shout

 

[Ronald]

Scott! These are your words! "Anything else is just not Christianity... sorry." And these,"obviously troubled soul." Two "Phoney as Three Dollar Bills" Statements that are unbecoming for someone of your stature. YOUR God said for you to stop judging, your favorite apostle said you shouldn't judge those not of your congregation. But I forget you are forgiven and cannot sin.

FYI, I am a soul, except for a tech of arthritis, I am not troubled, obviously or otherwise.
Todah Rabah!

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

I suppose you could interpret it that way, but based on the rest of scripture, I believe you are in error. For example, how would you explain these verses?

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:13-14

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
John 20:28

Jesus is God...or Thomas is an idolator.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
John 20:28

the expression “My Lord and my God” would have to harmonize with the rest of the scriptures. Since a previous verse said, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God,” there is no reason for believing that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God.
John, after recounting Thomas’ encounter with the resurrected Jesus, said “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” John 20:30, 31.

thomas may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in the sense of Jesus’ being “a god”, not the Almighty God, not “the only true God,” to whom Thomas had often heard Jesus pray.
Or he may have referred to Jesus as “my God” in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or spoken to by an angelic messenger of God, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Almighty God. This was because the angelic messenger was acting as God’s representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, “I am the true God.” Genesis 31:11-13
Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as “my God” in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case may be, it is sure that Thomas’ words wouldn’t contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, that is, “The Father is greater than I am.”

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:13-14

the Greek verb there used, eimi´, is literally in the present tense, but in view of its being preceded by the aorist infinitive clause which refers to Abraham’s past, the Greek verb eimi´ must be viewed as a historical present. Regarding the historical present Hadley and Allen’s Greek Grammar says : HISTORICAL PRESENT.—In vivid narration, a past event is often thought of and expressed as present: . . . The present in this use is freely interchanged with the past tenses . . . ”
says A. T. Robertson’s A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, under “The Historical Present,”: “This vivid idiom is popular in all languages, particularly in the vernacular. . . . it is much more frequent in Greek than in English and is a survival of ‘the original stock of our languages.’ ‘It antedates the differentiation into imperfect and aorist.’ . . . It is common enough in the LXX [Septuagint], . . . Hawkins finds the historical present in the LXX 337 times. Josephus uses it also. The New Testament examples are thus ‘dramatic.’ The historical present is not always aoristic. It may be durative like the imperfect. . . . Hawkins . . . finds 93 historic presents in Matthew (15 of them in Parables), but 162 in John and 151 in Mark. It is rare in the rest of the New Testament. It is most frequent in Mark, John, Matthew and in this order. . . .”
that a historical present in the Greek in the midst of a context of the past tense is properly rendered in English as a past tense is recognized by the best of modern Bible translators. Dr. James Moffatt was on the Revised Standard Version Bible Committee, and note how he translates John 8:58 in his own version: “‘Truly, truly I tell you,’ said Jesus, ‘I have existed before Abraham was born.’”
Professor E. J. Goodspeed was a member of the American Standard Bible Committee, and his translation renders John 8:58 as follows: “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!’”
Look at these other translations:
Chas. Williams’ The New Testament: “Then Jesus said to them, ‘I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born.’”
A. S. Lewis’ “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest: “He said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I have been.”
The Twentieth Century New Testament: “‘Believe me,’ Jesus replied, ‘before Abraham was born I was already what I am.’”
G. M. Lamsa’s The Modern New Testament: “Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Jas. Murdock’s The Syriac New Testament: “Jesus said to them: Verily, verily, I say to you, That before Abraham existed, I was.”
F. Pfaefflin’s Das Neue Testament (German): “Jesus: ‘Before there was an Abraham, I was already there [war ich schon da]!’”
C. Stage’s Das Neue Testament (German): “Jesus said to them: ‘Truly, truly, I say to you: Before Abraham was born, I was [war ich].’”
Nácar Colunga’s Nuevo Testamento (Spanish): “Jesus answered: ‘In truth, in truth, I say to you: Before Abraham was born, I was [era yo].’”
F. Delitzsch’s Hebrew New Testament and that by Salkinson-Ginsburg both have the verb in the perfect form “I have been” (haiithi) instead of in the imperfect form.

Since Jesus was referred to an existence from before Abraham and continuing down till he spoke, ego´ eimi´ as should be renderd “I have been” instead of “I was.” I thought that should clear things up for you. That’s all I have time for at the moment…

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

In a conversation about G-d and his laws, it's not a big deal. But when writing His name, we are cautious, why does it really matter that much what we do?

We don't replace His name in scripture because we consider it holy and we're not going to accidently crumple up the Bible like we could a piece of paper that my father wrote His name on. It's a precautioun, if you don't like it, don't do it.

If you get in a conversation about G-d and His nature or His laws, I will say His name as well, we are just cautious about writing it. jesus isn't G-d in my opinion, so I have no problem writing his name down and throwing it away.

Why do you care so much what we do? You're not Jewish, do as you wish.

Why would I care what Christians do with His name?

Cool.

Cool, I'm happy for you.

hi, sorry if i sound funny in my threads. it's not on purpose. i'd like to ask you one question tho. Why did the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why did the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah?

The Shema.

 

[michel]

What it boils down to is this, the Christian confession of the Lordship of Jesus is inextricably linked with the Christian belief in the Trinity, for Jesus' place in saving history makes sense only insofar as he has been sent by the Father, and together with the Father, sends the Holy Spirit to heal, to renew, and to reconcile all that has been wounded by sin. The Christian understanding of God, in other words, cannot be expressed fully, let alone explained, apart from the doctrine of the Trinity and the person and work of Jesus Christ.

"It is impossible to believe explicityly in the mystery of Christ without faith in the Trinity, for the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh, that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and, again, that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit."(St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologia, II-II, q.2,a.8)

Without the concept of the divinity of Christ, Christianity becomes no more than a cult following of a "wise human teacher".... or it goes in the other direction and vaults Christ to God and becomes Christomonism.... the uniqueness of Christ, indeed that of Christianity, is that Christ is rooted in his consubstantial union with God the Father. An understanding of that uniqueness must, in turn, presuppose an understanding of God as triune.

It is not faith in the abstract concept of Trinity... it is not faith in a Church dogma... it is the very notion that God incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, is our Lord and Savior, redeemer of all mandkind that makes understanding God as truine the cornerstone of Christianity.

Anything else is just not Christianity... sorry.

Well, I personally do subscribe to the Trinity, Scott, but I am aware that it is not a must for every branch of Christianity.

I hope I didn't give the Idea that I personally don't believe in the trinity.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

The Shema.

Thanks for that. but i don't understand why those commandments and laws etc are used against Jesus. am i missing something? and what is the shema?

 

[michel]

Thanks for that. but i don't understand why those commandments a lwas etc are used against Jesus. am i missing something? and what is the shema?

I certainly won't even ty to answer your first question; the second, have a look at:-

http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Shema_Yisrael.asp

Shema Yisrael -- "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" -- is perhaps the most famous of all Jewish sayings.

The Shema is a declaration of faith, a pledge of allegiance to One God. It is said upon arising in the morning and upon going to sleep at night. It is said when praising God and when beseeching Him. It is the first prayer that a Jewish child is taught to say. It is the last words a Jew says prior to death.

The Talmud says that when Jacob was about to reveal the end of days to his children, he was concerned that one of them might be a non-believer. His sons reassured him immediately and cried out, "Shema Yisrael."

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

I certainly won't even ty to answer your first question; the second, have a look at:-

http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Shema_Yisrael.asp

Shema Yisrael -- "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" -- is perhaps the most famous of all Jewish sayings.

The Shema is a declaration of faith, a pledge of allegiance to One God. It is said upon arising in the morning and upon going to sleep at night. It is said when praising God and when beseeching Him. It is the first prayer that a Jewish child is taught to say. It is the last words a Jew says prior to death.

The Talmud says that when Jacob was about to reveal the end of days to his children, he was concerned that one of them might be a non-believer. His sons reassured him immediately and cried out, "Shema Yisrael."

cheers. but that still doesn't explain why they rejected him as he never claimed to be God, but was the Son of God. it was the religious leaders who said that he tried to make himself equal with God, not Jesus. they knew from the prophecies that he was of divine orign, so what was their problem. Looking at the gospels, it was becuase Jesus showed them up for what they were and they used the false charge of blasphemy against him to get rid of him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks for that. but i don't understand why those commandments a lwas etc are used against Jesus.

You are actually asking two questions: (1) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the Messiah? ... and ... (2) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the God?

The important point here is that Judaism viewed the coming Messiah (or, in some cases, Messiahs) as righteous, observant Jews, anointed by YHWH but in no way divine. The early Christian concept of Jesus as God is a portrait of YHWH in Gnostic drag, and could only be viewed as the grossest of abominations by Jews. So, in answer to (2), the Jews rejected the concept of a divine Yeshua because it violated their central doctrine of monotheism.

As for why they might have rejected Jesus as Messiah, one can only speculate. Clearly, if there was, in fact, an historical Yeshua behind Paul's caricature, he would have in no way resembled the heroic Davidic leader anticipated by the Jews, i.e., Jesus was no bar Kochba.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., it was becuase Jesus showed them up for what they were and they used the false charge of blasphemy against him to get rid of him.

That is little more than late 1st century anti-Judaic drivel.

 

[michel]

You are actually asking two questions: (1) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the Messiah? ... and ... (2) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the God?

The important point here is that Judaism viewed the coming Messiah (or, in some cases, Messiahs) as righteous, observant Jews, anointed by YHWH but in no way divine. The early Christian concept of Jesus as God is a portrait of YHWH in Gnostic drag, and could only be viewed as the grossest of abominations by Jews. So, in answer to (2), the Jews rejected the concept of a divine Yeshua because it violated their central doctrine of monotheism.

As for why they might have rejected Jesus as Messiah, one can only speculate. Clearly, if there was, in fact, an historical Yeshua behind Paul's caricature, he would have in no way resembled the heroic Davidic leader anticipated by the Jews, i.e., Jesus was no bar Kochba.

I had always wanted to understand the reason why the Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah; after the third read of your post I did; thank you Jay.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

You are actually asking two questions: (1) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the Messiah? ... and ... (2) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the God?

The important point here is that Judaism viewed the coming Messiah (or, in some cases, Messiahs) as righteous, observant Jews, anointed by YHWH but in no way divine. The early Christian concept of Jesus as God is a portrait of YHWH in Gnostic drag, and could only be viewed as the grossest of abominations by Jews. So, in answer to (2), the Jews rejected the concept of a divine Yeshua because it violated their central doctrine of monotheism.

As for why they might have rejected Jesus as Messiah, one can only speculate. Clearly, if there was, in fact, an historical Yeshua behind Paul's caricature, he would have in no way resembled the heroic Davidic leader anticipated by the Jews, i.e., Jesus was no bar Kochba.

Thanks for the explanation. But did the jews not believe in angels? cos that's what he was. A messenger of God, sent by God. He was of divine origin and 500 people witnessed him asend into the heavens after his resurrection. Also, on your point about Paul's caricature, was it the smae as the Gospel's?
and pardon my ignorance, but what is a bar Kochba?

 

[TashaN]

You are actually asking two questions: (1) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the Messiah? ... and ... (2) Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus as the God?

The important point here is that Judaism viewed the coming Messiah (or, in some cases, Messiahs) as righteous, observant Jews, anointed by YHWH but in no way divine. The early Christian concept of Jesus as God is a portrait of YHWH in Gnostic drag, and could only be viewed as the grossest of abominations by Jews. So, in answer to (2), the Jews rejected the concept of a divine Yeshua because it violated their central doctrine of monotheism.

As for why they might have rejected Jesus as Messiah, one can only speculate. Clearly, if there was, in fact, an historical Yeshua behind Paul's caricature, he would have in no way resembled the heroic Davidic leader anticipated by the Jews, i.e., Jesus was no bar Kochba.

Can you please tell me how did the Jewish at that time knew that Jesus was divine or that he claimed to be a god?

according to little information i have there are no proof in the original Injeel or recently the bible that Jesus claimed that he is a god.

One more question, can you please help me with some verses from your scriptures about the Massiah that the Jewish were waiting.

Thanks ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can you please tell me how did the Jewish at that time knew that Jesus was divine or that he claimed to be a god?

I do not understand your question.

One more question, can you please help me with some verses from your scriptures about the Massiah that the Jewish were waiting.

A discussion of this can be found here.

 

[TashaN]

I do not understand your question.

Was one of the reasons why Jewish rejected Jesus at that time is that he is divine according to christians dogma?

 

[Scott1]

Scott! These are your words! "Anything else is just not Christianity... sorry."

Rrrrright... and your point? I was defining what I believe to be historical Christianity... I was not describing people whom I believe have every right to call themselves Christians however they choose to worship..... like you, for instance... I have no idea if you are Christian or Jewish... you pop up every once and a while and tell people how wrong they are... toss in a few words in Hebrew... and then dash off without ever actually teaching anyone what you believe. Hey, whatever floats your boat... I just prefer a conversation with people who actually are here to teach and help others grow, not just post attacks on others to make themselves feel better... but, like I said, that's just me.

And these,"obviously troubled soul." Two "Phoney as Three Dollar Bills" Statements that are unbecoming for someone of your stature.

I pray for you often.... I don't know what my "stature" is (???) but I can honestly say that for the last year, I've wanted you to post here more.... and I do believe I send you a PM a long time ago and asked you to post more about your faith in a non-debate educational forum... you are obviously sincere in your devotion to faith, it is just that after a year, I still don't know what that faith is... maybe I'm just slow.

YOUR God said for you to stop judging, your favorite apostle said you shouldn't judge those not of your congregation. But I forget you are forgiven and cannot sin.

I don't judge you.... and I am forgiven for the sins I have confessed to the Lord and repented of, and I most certainly can sin.... I do every day.

FYI, I am a soul, except for a tech of arthritis, I am not troubled, obviously or otherwise.

Good to hear it... but a few of my prayers won't hurt ya... now will it?

Todah Rabah!

**Sigh** Maybe in English next time, so we all can learn from ya... is that possible Ronald?

 

[Ronald]

Scott, I am sorry, I have been called judgemental when I made statements akin to what you said.
I wasn't judgemental after all, Scott says it isn't judgement and I almost, almost always believe you Scott.

I am also sorry you are slow. Yeah! You did send me an invitation to expound on my faith and I did.
You must have overlooked it because it was short.

I am of the Way, the same Way, Paul persecuted until he had his "Experience". The Way is Jewish/Hebrew, those who were called to believe in the Messiah. We shema/observe and shemar/obey the word of God. Now does it take a "Rocket Sceintist" to figure out that the bible was written by Hebrews for Hebrews in Hebrew?

Then my signature says it again, one doesn't have to bow down to the image of a man to be saved.

Salvation is great! Salvation begins with being least in the kingdom! Then there are those who will be great,---SSSSSSOooooooooooo-------- there is a vast expanse between least and the greatest!

What do I teach? The simple/p'sh't meaning of the bible/Word of God. There are 2500 denominations out there who want to bend, twist, massage, enlarge, modify, clarify and block the Way, but searchers will, via aid from the Spirit of God or one of them, find the Way.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. (Who is he? The Word of God.) Amen

 

[Scott1]

Thanks Ronald.