Do "Trump's Lies Matter"?

[Mr Spinkles]

To my fellow Never-Trumpers: why do you think "Trump's Lies Matter"?

Those who support him say that he may be "boorish", or a "gadfly" ... or they may use some other highbrow term to whitewash his lying, bullying, racism ... But importantly, his supporters claim that Trump's actions, not what he rants about on Twitter, are what really count.

Why, in your view, are they wrong?

I have seen this argument come up a number of times on this forum. I think it's an argument that deserves a response.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The lies are a symptom of the bigger problems with Trump.

 

[SoyLeche]

I’m mostly concerned about what the election of so obvious a liar says about the country.

In a similar vein, I’m not concerned that trump is ruining the country, I’m concerned that it is already ruined.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

his supporters claim that Trump's actions, not what he rants about on Twitter, are what really count. Why, in your view, are they wrong?

Trump is a bigoted, racist, vengeful, narcissistic, bully and compulsive liar, a self-admitted serial sexual predator. a serial adulterer, a lifetime fraud and cheat, and now add murderer. Does that matter?

It does to you (and me), but not to over 40% of Americans, who approve of this reprobate and miscreant. That's what matters. There's a problem. This widespread indifference to Trump's character is a barometer for the character and judgment of the American people themselves.

I don't think it likely that a people can think this way and not pay a price for it. This has all the makings of a parable or morality fable - prodigal nation.

 

[sun rise]

To me, morality/ethics matter and in the long term matter most. Left/right debate about policy etc among honest people of good will is positive and helpful.

Evolution, social evolution, relies on increasing positive motivations and actions. A positive future depends on treating everyone including the poor and homeless as equally valuable to the most entitled and rich.

Devolution, going backwards, happens when lying, cheating, stealing and divisive words and deeds increase and when narcissism is at best ignored or worse praised. And it happens when corruption is allowed free reign.

An atheist who was responsible for the show Babylon 5, wrote these words which speak directly to me.

The universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice.
...
It speaks in the language of hope
It speaks in the language of trust
It speaks in the language of strength and the language of compassion
It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul.
But always it is the same voice
It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us,
And the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born
It is the small, still voice that says
We are one.
...
we agree to recognize this singular truth and this singular rule:
That we must be kind to one another
Because each voice enriches us and ennobles us and each voice lost diminishes us.
We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation,
the fire that will light the way to a better future.
We are one.

Declaration of Principles

 

[stvdv]

Why, in your view, are they wrong?

Scriptures are all very clear on this "Truth will set you free"

My conscience is very clear on this too. I don't like to lie (and correct it if I find out), and I don't like to be lied to
(I do not judge people who have huge emotional trauma's and as a consequence are too scared to tell the truth)
(Trump falls into the category which is even proud about his lies, it seems to me)

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Trump reflects and speaks for those that support him.
he is a measure of their morals and judgement.

This moral vacuum and self serving, extends to the highest reaches of government and the courts.
It can not possibly end well.

It would be better for the world if he did not get to serve another term.
If he does, his resultant damage will take disproportionately more time to correct,
and the long term prospects for the USA grow dimmer.

At Davos, he was made to look small and irrelevant by Greta Thunberg, and she did not even mention him.
his own speech was listened to politely, but was dismissed as out of touch with reality by the majority of delegates.

 

[pearl]

Why, in your view, are they wrong?

As president of the US Trump is a 'major cluster f***'.'

 

[Revoltingest]

Those who support him say that he may be "boorish", or a "gadfly" ... or they may use some other highbrow term to whitewash his lying, bullying, racism ... But importantly, his supporters claim that Trump's actions, not what he rants about on Twitter, are what really count.

What's your opinion about which matters most, ie, Twitter posts vs actions (policies)?

 

[sooda]

As president of the US Trump is a 'major cluster f***'.'

[video]

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

do you think "Trump's Lies Matter"?

Not to the trumpettes, obviously.

 

[Stevicus]

Trump is a bigoted, racist, vengeful, narcissistic, bully and compulsive liar, a self-admitted serial sexual predator. a serial adulterer, a lifetime fraud and cheat, and now add murderer. Does that matter?

It does to you (and me), but not to over 40% of Americans, who approve of this reprobate and miscreant. That's what matters. There's a problem. This widespread indifference to Trump's character is a barometer for the character and judgment of the American people themselves.

I don't think it likely that a people can think this way and not pay a price for it. This has all the makings of a parable or morality fable - prodigal nation.

I tend to look at it slightly differently, at least as far as the barometer for the character and judgment of the American people.

I was listening to a radio call-in show the other day, and some caller said he was a big Trump supporter because he saw Trump as "one of us" and that he "talks like we do." In my own experience throughout my lifetime, I've encountered countless people who are similar to Trump in terms of personality and manner of expression.

To me, it's not so great of a mystery, because I've lived in America all of my life, I've traveled all over the country, and I have relatives scattered from coast to coast. I still don't like Trump, but unlike a lot of others who have expressed their dissatisfaction and dismay, he's not any real great "shock" to me.

His kind abounds throughout America, but in recent years, I'm beginning to realize that there are some people who have little to no experience with the same sections of America I have experienced. Many of them seem to either live in foreign countries or possibly in some coastal enclave where they have little to no real life contact with "Middle America."

 

[sooda]

I tend to look at it slightly differently, at least as far as the barometer for the character and judgment of the American people.

I was listening to a radio call-in show the other day, and some caller said he was a big Trump supporter because he saw Trump as "one of us" and that he "talks like we do." In my own experience throughout my lifetime, I've encountered countless people who are similar to Trump in terms of personality and manner of expression.

To me, it's not so great of a mystery, because I've lived in America all of my life, I've traveled all over the country, and I have relatives scattered from coast to coast. I still don't like Trump, but unlike a lot of others who have expressed their dissatisfaction and dismay, he's not any real great "shock" to me.

His kind abounds throughout America, but in recent years, I'm beginning to realize that there are some people who have little to no experience with the same sections of America I have experienced. Many of them seem to either live in foreign countries or possibly in some coastal enclave where they have little to no real life contact with "Middle America."

Hard to believe that Middle America is deceived by Trump.

Salt of the earth and all that. I always think of them as patriots.

 

[Stevicus]

Hard to believe that Middle America is deceived by Trump.

Salt of the earth and all that. I always think of them as patriots.

"Deceived" may not be the right word here. My impression is that they don't feel as personally threatened by Trump as others appear to be. It struck me when I heard that radio caller say "he is one of us."

 

[sooda]

"Deceived" may not be the right word here. My impression is that they don't feel as personally threatened by Trump as others appear to be. It struck me when I heard that radio caller say "he is one of us."

That's silly.Trump inherited $400 million and has little education. He's cheated his way thru life for 40 years and had three wives. He's NOT like us.

 

[Stevicus]

That's silly.Trump inherited $400 million and has little education. He's cheated his way thru life for 40 years and had three wives. He's NOT like us.

I'm not sure if this tells the whole story. As I said, you can find his personality type throughout America, with the same basic attitudes and political ideas. Remember, one of the biggest reasons cited for the Democrats' loss in 2016 was that they were "out of touch."

True, most Americans don't inherit $400 million, although their level of education may vary. A lot of people cheat their way through life and have multiple marriages, so he may be more like "us" than many Americans would care to admit.

But I would also suggest that our different perceptions may also be due to different experiences. For example, I get the impression that you've lived a good portion of your life in the Middle East, so your experience may have given you a different perception that most Americans can't relate to.

 

[leov]

To my fellow Never-Trumpers: why do you think "Trump's Lies Matter"?

Those who support him say that he may be "boorish", or a "gadfly" ... or they may use some other highbrow term to whitewash his lying, bullying, racism ... But importantly, his supporters claim that Trump's actions, not what he rants about on Twitter, are what really count.

Why, in your view, are they wrong?

I have seen this argument come up a number of times on this forum. I think it's an argument that deserves a response.

I think, America is in dire economical situation and Trump does what he can (lies too) to keep it from imploding...

 

[sooda]

I'm not sure if this tells the whole story. As I said, you can find his personality type throughout America, with the same basic attitudes and political ideas. Remember, one of the biggest reasons cited for the Democrats' loss in 2016 was that they were "out of touch."

True, most Americans don't inherit $400 million, although their level of education may vary. A lot of people cheat their way through life and have multiple marriages, so he may be more like "us" than many Americans would care to admit.

But I would also suggest that our different perceptions may also be due to different experiences. For example, I get the impression that you've lived a good portion of your life in the Middle East, so your experience may have given you a different perception that most Americans can't relate to.

Fair enough. I grew up surrounded by geologists, chemists, cartographers and engineers.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was listening to a radio call-in show the other day, and some caller said he was a big Trump supporter because he saw Trump as "one of us" and that he "talks like we do."

Interesting parallel between such Trump supporters & the anti-Trumpers....
They're not so different from each other. Both hear/read what he says,
& his personal traits create personal feelings of either hatred or affection.
But there is another way....a better way. Have no feelings for him or any
politician. Consider consequences of their actions, & favor or oppose
them based upon merits independent of the person responsible.

This also helps avoid a problem exhibited in the OP, ie, tribalism.
Fervent anti-Trumpettes divide us all into either themselves or Trump
supporters, not allowing for the category of neither. This leads to
hostility, & misunderstanding of everyone's perspective.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

What's your opinion about which matters most, ie, Twitter posts vs actions (policies)?

When you serve in high public office, your actions and your words are intertwined. No action can be taken by a president except by issuing words to staff and supporters.