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Featured Do these things exist?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by MatthewA, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    I would say that everyone in life important and that am thankful they are alive and breathing but we are all broken; I believe. @SigurdReginson

    And that God cares for and desires for them to come to the knowledge of the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ I believe.

    Just not everyone has desires for God or Jesus Christ. Which is a simple fact I believe.
     
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  2. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    I'm glad you have a much more positive perspective than I did, MatthewA. :)

    I do find, though, that in since leaving Christianity I have become a much better person. That's just my own story, though. Many people have felt their lives improve by incorporating Christianity into their lives.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

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    Sexual immorality, to me, are things like rape. I'm lesbian and don't believe sexual immorality in christian view when it comes to same-sex intimacy. Outside of that, personally, no. I don't desire these other things. I don't steal anymore. I don't have greed (for what? I actually hate money). I can't think of any time as an mature adult that I had desire to do anything on your list outside of christian view of sexual immorality. Probably cause I don't go out, I don't make friends at my job, and only have one friend for 13 years who gave me no inherent reason to not trust her and other things.

    I don't know how to address this, actually. Everyone has different experiences with what they believe their flesh does and what they have experienced as well as who or what they ask for help from whether inwardly or outwardly. To each his own?

    That's good.

    A lot of my behaviors are from past experiences and stuff from upbringing, disability, and brain surgery. I can't think of anything I want to do that's a sin. Even calling someone evil or telling someone they should die because they, I don't know, raped a child makes me uncomfortable.

    Maybe I need thicker skin, I don't know.
     
  4. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    @SigurdReginson if you don’t mind me asking what Christian sect where you born and raised in? I’m someone who doesn’t go to church often but have studied the New Testament a lot in the past 5 years I don’t know everything but I understand how life becomes changed by and through faith. I believe I do anyway. The Bible for me is easy to read especially when it comes to the New Testament for the most part. I know a lot more than I did never going and reading it.
     
  5. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    @Unveiled Artist you seem like a friendly person for the most part thank you for the conversation. As far it goes when it comes down to Christianity if we failed in one area we failed them all; and that is why I believe as human beings we are broken and are in need of a savior; thankful Christ Jesus is someone whom can deliver I believe.
     
  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    The potentials for bad things exist within us, as much as the potential for good things does. "Make clean the inside of the cup first", then the outside will be made clean," says Jesus.

    There is an old quote from Sitting Bull I think captures the same principle,

    “Inside of me there are two dogs. One is mean and evil and the other is good and they fight each other all the time. When asked which one wins I answer, the one I feed the most.”

     
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  7. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    @Windwalker what do you mean good things exist within us? When our inherent nature is not good (which I believe is why Christ is saying what is posted in the original topic.)

    In Christianity a person with faith who believes in the good news Gospel is given the Holy Spirit/spirit of Christ; and it is the good that comes from God that flows through them by the spirit and it is something believers can’t take credit for it is something that comes from above is heavenly and not earthly. Which thanksgiving is given unto to God and the Lord Jesus Christ I believe.
     
  8. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    I was raised Evangelical/Baptist/Fundamentalist. I went to other churches as well, such as Non-Denom, Pentecostal, 4 Square, and Church of the Nazerene. :)
     
  9. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    @SigurdReginson been around the block I see that is cool; I been in and out of church’s throughout life never been a member of any of them. I in fact there was one time I stood up told the preacher ; yeah and sometimes Christ Jesus makes people run away from you to; and walked out the building. One time during a sermon I spoke out and had to talk to the big boss of the church.

    I never cared for church all that much really. Sometimes it’s just a show and no truth is being give and I enjoy know the truth about matters.
     
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  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    There's a lot of real moral issues in your list. I can't generalize all people this way. Certainly many take to some of these ways.

    If all people did these things society would utterly collapse.

    They exist!
     
  11. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    I would say Evangelical/Baptist/Fundamentalist were my mainstays. All those other churches were due to friends inviting me to theirs for a few services, or some such. Later on in my walk I mostly did 4 Square, though.

    I'm glad you had the courage to stand up and speak out for what you thought was right! I do notice that when I did have difficult questions in the past, my pastor was less than helpful. Had my experience with Christianity not been one of demonization and judgmental attitudes towards certain people, I might still be a Christian today, honestly. Not that I find that kind of thing regretful, because ultimately leaving that life behind was good for me in the long run, but it's still something that has crossed my mind.

    I guess that's one reason I enjoy it when I see good Christian folks come around this forum. It's a reminder that my experiences are just a small, isolated incident that don't reflect anything more than my experiences in and of themselves. The world is bigger than my narrow view of it. :)
     
  12. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I believe what the Bible says and that these arise from within the minds and emotions of people: first in thoughts which then can lead to actions and behaviors.
     
  13. janesix

    janesix Active Member

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    YES.
     
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  14. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Lots of people have had negative experiences with churches and/or things done in the name of Christianity, including myself.
    I find that it’s important to keep my focus on Jesus Christ alone and the even bigger eternal perspective.
     
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  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Goodness exists within us. That is the place from where we do good things. It's where they come from. Inherent goodness. We are made in God's image. God is goodness, is He not?

    We have both natures in us. Good things come from the goodness of our hearts. And bad things also come from the corruption of that good heart. Christ is saying "feed the good dog".

    Goodness is of the Divine. When people do good things, it is coming from the Divine within them. Particularly so when it is untouched by the human ego, where pride seeks a foothold, but instead it comes from a place of pure, unconditional love. It comes from a place of surrender and humility. That's Divine love in action, through humans. And that is the teachings of Jesus.
     
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  16. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    @Windwalker; I do believe that people who are believers in the God of The bible have the spirit with-in them; and they have been born again I believe. But with out the Lord Jesus Christ: people are still spiritually dead because of not being born again; I believe.

    I disagree with you saying that Good comes from us naturally. Because we only have one nature; Human fleshly nature (Which comes from our heart and is mentioned in the the original topic posted); until a person is born again and the spiritual nature becomes part of them I believe.

    You may disagree with me as well; but that is my stance when it comes to the perspective view of Christianity.

    Jesus Christ says this to his disciples on the mount of Olives.

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    A believer can be told from an unbeliever by what is presented from and by their heart.

    The fruits a believer will bear is fruits of love; by and through faith - Goodness, faithfulnes, forbearance, gentleness, self-control, kindness, peace, joy.

    Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    According to the Christian perspective; we do not condemn or judge the unbeliever however we are to have love for them; but that doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they present as the truth because there are things that are questionable. I believe.

    Others may see or believe things differently I do not know.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The question is whether any of these are evils.

    In my book, theft, unlawful homicide, slander, arrogance, are all "immoral". In general, "immorality" arises when someone else is hurt deliberately or through recklessness, or when a breach of trust is involved, and that covers sexuality.
     
  18. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Those are a list of qualifications for the Religious Right candidates.
     
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  19. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    If they were truly spiritually dead, then they could not produce good fruit. Yet they do. Where does it come from? You quoted the verse I was going to quote, so I'll just use that here myself as well.

    "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."​

    To break that apart a little, please note it says you will know them by their fruits. Not, by their doctrines and beliefs. Many Christians like to judge the salvation of others, be they fellow Christians or the rest of humanity, by the things they believe in. Yet, nowhere do you find that in Jesus' teaching here. The criteria is the fruit of their hearts manifest in actions. That's it. That's how you can assess whether someone is spiritual dead, spiritually awakened, or somewhere in between. By their fruits, not by their conformity with religious doctrines and beliefs.

    Secondly, because of this, when we see someone produce good fruit, we know that they are not an evil tree, or "spiritually dead", as you put it. Jesus even said that an evil tree cannot produce good fruit. Yet, that is what some Christians want people to believe, that good people of other religions are lost, unsaved, an evil tree. But they are still producing good fruit, which according to Jesus they could not do if they were evil.

    Can you explain that? How are they producing good fruit, if they aren't a person converted to the Christian religion itself per se? Where is that good fruit coming from? Could it be they are in fact a good tree, as Jesus taught us, despite not be a member of the "right religion"? Could bearing good fruit have nothing at all to do with joining the "right religion"?

    No, we have a dual nature, according to scripture. Didn't Paul express that struggle within himself with the will to do good, but the impulse to ignore that and do bad? "That which I would not do, that thing I do. And that which I would do, that I do not?" Where is the will to do good coming from, if the tree is rotten to the core?

    A history lesson here may be of help to your perspective on these matters. The "fallen nature" of man doctrine took root in Christianity through Augustine in the 4th and 5th century AD. Not all Christian leader of that time thought like Augustine did, who was riddled with guilt from his childhood over sexual impulses he experienced. Pelagius who was an equal of Augustine, for instance, believed that people were inherently good, and that Jesus came to teach us how to awaken that in us to its fullest potentials. (for your reference: The Battle of the Will, Part 1: Pelagius and Augustine - The Gospel Coalition)

    Both Augustine and Pelagius were interpreting from the same scriptures, and each bringing their own experiences and perspectives into those interpretations. It does not teach the doctrines of either explicitly in scripture, but they are later understandings based upon their readings of scripture. It is not proper or correct to say, "The Bible teaches the doctrine of original sin". It does not.

    That is an interpretation from scripture by later theologians, which contradicts what other theologians interpreted from the same scripture at the same time. One can claim, "well, that other guy was wrong. They both can't be right". But I find that perspective far too narrow and out of touch with the actual complexities and nuances of both scripture itself, and hermeneutics in general. Expectations of black and white answers, are naive to say the least.

    Just to be clear here, this is your perspective of what the Christian perspective is. I have a view of what the Christian perspective is that is not the same as yours. There are many perspectives from Christians on what the Christian perspective is.

    Personally, I think there is no such thing as the "Christian perspective", as Christianity is not a monovocal entity, unless you believe in an infallible central authority who speaks for all Christians, on the level of the Pope for instance? You can claim the Bible is that central authority, but whose interpretation of the Bible is to be considered infallible here? Can you identify that figure?

    Amen and amen. This is a passage I use to support that Christianity is not an exclusivist religion, and that the true test is fruits, not beliefs. For instance, January 6. You have Christians who violently entered the Capitol building in an act of insurrection against the legitimately elected government, and stood in the Senate chambers praying in Jesus' name, thanking him and the Father, and the Spirit, for the goodness of their actions.

    "By their fruits you shall know them", clearly means something. The words were right, they did their deeds in "Jesus' name", but their deeds were evil. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit," said the Lord.

    Amen again. And all who do this, are children of God, according to the teachings of Jesus. "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." All of these are the will of the Father. All who do these, are producing good fruit, from a good tree. Nothing in there whatsoever about beliefs and doctrines.

    Absolutely. This you see in humans from all over the world, in all religions, who are doing the will of the Father, in however they understand the Divine. They are good trees, producing good fruits, and by those fruits you will know them. Not by their claims of religious exclusiveness.

    Again, "the Christian perspective" is multifaceted. I certainly am presenting a Christian perspective here, which a great many Christians both believe and teach. You find yourself at the moment at odds with that perspective coming from your perspective. But I agree, we are not to judge someone as an "unbeliever", if we are looking at them as being either a "believer or unbeliever" if the criteria is belief.

    Better to see them as either fruit-bearing, or baren, or simply not yet in season. Not believer or unbeliever. There are more than a few who "believe" in God and Jesus, yet bear either no fruit, or bad fruit. So belief is not central. Wouldn't you agree with that?
     
    #59 Windwalker, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  20. Novatian

    Novatian New Member

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    These things are thoughts and intents, that come from Satan and the sinful nature of the body. A person can be tempted to commit adultery, by the married person in spoken or body language, ultimately Satan is behind it, the "unclean spirit" Jesus mentions. Spirits can see us, tempt us, by sight, sound... or directly to the imagination. If we do not resist enough, or stay awake and pray, Satan can enter in. And Satan can cause unclean thoughts. Jesus' apostle, maybe Paul, said, the love of money is the root of all evil.

    Young naive Adam and Eve did not have a sinful nature. No unclean thoughts were in their hearts until they heard Satan and looked afresh at the tree of knowledge. They then wanted to steal equality with God.

    Now there is an inclination ingrained in our bodies, for the appetites of the flesh to lead over the human spirit and proper spirituality. Greed, lust, erring sex drive, spiritual blindness. And we are born in sin or at least with no grace in the heart of the human spirit, not the pump. Which can be exploited.

    Jesus taught us to receive grace into our hearts and then as we "remain in the vine" in Christ, we have eternal life. Our hearts are made clean by Jesus' sacred blood sprinkled over our spirits.
     
    #60 Novatian, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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