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Do these scriptures contridict the LDS belief that we can become like God?

jonny

Well-Known Member
I recently posted an article on my blog with some scriptures that I believe point to the LDS belief that we can become a 'god.' It is the first of a series of articles I'm planning.

One of the comments left on the article was a list of scriptures. This is what was left:

Deuteronomy 4:35 (KJV) Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deuteronomy 4:39 (KJV) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 32:39 (KJV) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Samuel 7:22 (KJV) Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Samuel 22:32 (KJV) For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Chronicles 17:20 (KJV) O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Isaiah 40:25 (KJV) To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 43:10 (KJV) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 45:5-6 (KJV) 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:21-22 (KJV) 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 (KJV) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

John 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Romans 3:30 (KJV) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

I didn't approve it as a comment because it broke a couple of the comment "rules" I have for the blog, but I'm planning on doing a follow-up post with these scriptures. I think the point of the post (there was no additional analysis given) is that these scriptures discredit the LDS belief that we can become like God.

So, what do you think? Do any of these scriptures make the LDS belief that we can become like God null and void?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The thing that jumps out at me in every one of these verses is that they all refer to "God" and not to "gods." As you and I, and every other Latter-day Saint on the forum knows, there is an enormous difference between becoming "gods" and becoming "God." There truly is no God besides Him, nor will there ever be.
 
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TheGreaterGame

Active Member
Not that I am trying to debate, but rather just making some comments about "plain sense hermenutics", when God says "there is no other god besides me" how can that leave any room for twisting that or bending that to mean anything else other than there are no other gods?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Not that I am trying to debate, but rather just making some comments about "plain sense hermenutics", when God says "there is no other god besides me" how can that leave any room for twisting that or bending that to mean anything else other than there are no other gods?

Good question. That's why I think the scriptures need to be read in context of both the situation where they were recorded and the Bible as a whole.

In one verse it says that "there is no god beside me." In another it says, "ye are gods." Both are right and they cannot contradict. I personally believe that we will never be 'equal' with God, so it isn't innacurate to say that there is no god beside him. This does bring up some interesting points regarding the Trinity though, but let's not debate that here.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Not that I am trying to debate, but rather just making some comments about "plain sense hermenutics", when God says "there is no other god besides me" how can that leave any room for twisting that or bending that to mean anything else other than there are no other gods?
Well, since this is debate forum, please don't hesitate to debate. :)

I think it's much the same thing as England's Queen Elizabeth saying, "I'm your Queen. There is no other Queen but me." Obviously, there are a number of other queens reigning in various countries of the world, but for with respect to her subjects, she truly is the only Queen.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Well, since this is debate forum, please don't hesitate to debate. :)

I think it's much the same thing as England's Queen Elizabeth saying, "I'm your Queen. There is no other Queen but me." Obviously, there are a number of other queens reigning in various countries of the world, but for with respect to her subjects, she truly is the only Queen.

I think that's a great analogy. I haven't read all the scriptures surrounding the ones I posted above, but of the ones that I did read it seems that in all cases God is trying to demonstrate his authority over them to his people by saying that he is the only God. He's saying I'm God and these are my commandments. I've done this and that and these actions can't be credited to anyone else because I am God and there is no God beside me.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
but in the LDS teachings of Exaltation . . . it means to become Divine . . . is that an accurate description or not?

I don't know what you mean by that. This is how the scriptures define Exaltation:

Section 132:19,20 - "And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Here is how exaltation is defined in Gospel Principles - a book used to teach new members the basic principles of the Gospel (as taught by the LDS Church):

What Is Exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give his children (see D&C 14:7).

Blessings of Exaltation

Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, "This is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, "All things are theirs" (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

  1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
  2. They will become gods.
  3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
  4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
  5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have--all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
but in the LDS teachings of Exaltation . . . it means to become Divine . . . is that an accurate description or not?
Through the scriptures, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. (See Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21)

1 Peter 5:4-6 specifically states, "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time."

The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology states, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

The Latter-day Saints certainly didn't invent this doctrine. C.S. Lewis, admired by Christians of all denominations, expressed his perspective as follows:


“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

We Latter-day Saints would describe exaltation in virtually identical terms.
 
FFH said that he believes eventually all these Mormon gods will have their strings cut and will rule their own universe, as our God rules this one. Is that a widespread and/or official belief, or one of his opinions?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
FFH said that he believes eventually all these Mormon gods will have their strings cut and will rule their own universe, as our God rules this one. Is that a widespread and/or official belief, or one of his opinions?

Did he give you a scripture reference for that? I don't know how widespread that belief is on having 'the strings cut', but I don't think it's official doctrine. My understanding from the scriptures is that God will always be our God. Through Christ, we can all become perfected. This means a couple things to me - such as the perfect use of priesthood authority (which according to LDS beliefs is the power to act in God's name). In this way, it really doesn't matter much if we are acting or if it is God the Father acting because we are doing what he would do.

You can see most of what is said in the scriptures by reading the post I made in my blog. If it isn't in the scriptures or supported scripturally, it can be considered opinion or speculation. This isn't to say that the opinion/speculation isn't true.

For what it's worth, the word "universe" is not found anywhere in LDS scripture. I did a quick search on my search engine (see below), and the word "universe" isn't used once in reference to us becoming like God. You can draw your own conclusions on how widespread that particular belief is. At best, most Mormons might say "maybe." If it was a fundamental belief, you think you'd find some mention of it SOMEWHERE on LDS.org or the many apologetics sites.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
The thing that jumps out at me in every one of these verses is that they all refer to "God" and not to "gods." As you and I, and every other Latter-day Saint on the forum knows, there is an enormous difference between becoming "gods" and becoming "God." There truly is no God besides Him, nor will there ever be.
Great post, problem/controversy solved !
 

FFH

Veteran Member
I also would like to say; as of yet, no one is "joint heirs" with Christ.

No one who has ever lived on this earth is a god yet, or "joint heirs" with Christ, because the first resurrection has not happened yet, and in order to be a god one would need a resurrected body, which no one who has ever lived on this earth has yet...

All those who have ever lived and died on this earth are waiting in either spirit paradise or spirit prison for either the the first or second resurrection, when many who were found worthy at the first resurrection, will become gods in every respect of the word; rulers of their own "kingdoms, principalities, dominions, ALL HEIGHTS AND DEPTHS"....having ALL "powers" to create...

Anything less would mean we will be anything but rulers of our own universes or UNLIMITED SPACE, in my opinion...

We see things done "On earth as it is (done) in heaven".

At some point strings are detached, and we are given responsibilities to run our own homes, businesses, etc...

Heaven is no different. We are sent here to see if we are found "faithful over a few things," then we will be made "rulers over many things"...

...and according to scripture there is no limit to space, time, creation, etc...

There are no limits, if one is found worthy to be called a god and to say otherwise would mean one would be anything but a god and subject to, or a servant to God, which the Doctorine and Covenants 132 clearly states that those in the Telestial (lowest) kingdom will be...

...but as gods we will no longer be servants to God, but will be free to do as we please, within the boundaries of righteousness, which we will be masters of, being free from the temptations of Satan, having proved ourselves worthy under all circumstances/temptations, having no desires to further sin...

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ and he alone is head of this church and this world...

Right now there is "no other God or god beside him". He rules the heavens and the earth alone at this point in time, with help of course, by those who are under his authority, and by the direction and command of the Father, who is God, as is Christ...

Christ does not know for sure when the first resurrection will be, because he is under the direction of the Father, who will send Christ to meet us in the air/clouds at the first resurrection. when, those who are found worthy, will become "joint heirs" with him and be called gods..

Doctrine and Covenants 132

To make this next section of the Doctrine and Covenants (138) more personal, I would like to add; I am a blood relative of Joseph F. Smith's sister (Martha Ann Smith) both of whom were born to Hyrum Smith (Joseph Smith's brother) and Mary Fielding Smith.

Joseph F. Smith was 5 and his younger sister (Martha Ann) was 3, when their father Hyrum and his brother Joseph Smith were killed in Carthage, Illinois...

Joseph F. Smith, his sister and his mother, walked to Salt Lake, with the rest of the saints who were subsequently driven from Nauvoo, after Hyrum and Joseph Smith's death. They settled in ihe Millcreek area, which is part of South Salt Lake..

Mary Fielding Smith remained a widow and raised Joseph F. (Fielding) and Martha Ann herself, along with her deceased husbands (Hyrum's) other deceased wife's (Jerusha's) children, five total, not including Joseph F. and Marha Ann...

She had her hands full, but managed to raise them all successfully...

Joseph F. Smith, acting as President of the LDS church, had the following revelation concerning the spirits who now await the first or the second resurrection, in spirit paradise or in spirit prison, respectively. Among these are Adam and Eve and all the holy prophets and apostles. No one is a god yet, and won't be until the first resurrection, when those who are found worthy will become gods.

This is the last section of the Doctrine and Covenants. A revelation given to Joseph F. Smith, a descendent of Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, who served, in the past, as one of the Presidents of the LDS church.

Revelation given October 3, 1918

Doctrine and Covenants 138

Joseph F. Smith
 

Wisdom_Seeker

Speaker of my Truth
well yeah we can become gods, but what is the way? I can tell you what is NOT the way, and that is by following a dogma or a belief system.
 
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