Do the Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God....?

[J2hapydna]

Twisting what people say is never clever

If you could articulate your views more clearly, then perhaps others will understand what you mean and it may not look like others are twisting what you are saying? I haven't seen anyone else saying I'm twisting anything you said. I'm sure they would point it out if I were. Now please provide a rebuttal to the counter argument. Thanks

 

[RESOLUTION]

I have asked you to show us a verse from the Quran that says MP wasn't from that line. Or better yet show me a verse from the Quran that says MP is the Messiah.

You seem to be chasing your own tail, arguing about things that nobody is disagreeing with you on.

I have asked you to show us a verse from the Quran that says MP wasn't from that line. Or better yet show me a verse from the Quran that says MP is the Messiah.

You seem to be chasing your own tail, arguing about things that nobody is disagreeing with you on.

The Koran is not the Holy Word of God the Torah is. You show me in the Torah where Ishmael has a covenant like Isaacs.

Yhwh chose Isaac and the Jews all come down from the three whom God claims he is the God of... Abraham,Isaac and Jacob.

You fall into your own trap as you have neither the knowledge or ability to question YHWH about who he choses and whom he does not chose.

Let us make this plain for you for these truths explain what everyone needs to know.


Genesis 17:15-16
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Hence only through Sarah who is the mother of Isaac does the promise of the mother of nations come. God making it clear that Isaac is the Son of his Covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

You might as well say from your reply.. Show us in the book of Mormon where ETC.

The Koran and those who believe in the Koran cannot remove YHWH or his Word the Torah from the rightful place as the ONLY God and those who love the ONLY God obey his words in the Torah and know the Promised Messiah is born of the child of Abraham and Sarah the mother of nations. There is really nothing you can say or do which changes the truth.

You do not have any power or even right to question Gods Words based on your prophet Mahomet or the Koran.
God has already made clear that the answers to the questions you ask are in the Torah and if you cannot obey them then you
do not follow Ywhw the God who gave them.
I have no desire to answer from the Koran. Many years ago we found when the koran read that it even differed from the NT in that it said Jesus was born in the hollowed out palm tree. That it calls him just a prophet.

The hardest hitting fact that even the Jewish and Christian scholars all agree on is this:-

The Word of God always came to man through the Holy Spirit.
The exception that God with Moses with him wrote on the Stone tablets himself (the 10 commandments ) with his finger.

If you want to ask me question then use the Torah but don't ask me questions about a book which was not said to be given by Gods Holy Spirit through individual Prophets.

You are questioning me about the true God YHWH and his Word and people in the teachings of the Torah and letters of the Prophets. So either use those for your questioning or admit your faith is not founded on them.

 

[cetakoradi]

[definitely not Christians and Muslims do not serve the same God.

 

[J2hapydna]

The Koran is not the Holy Word of God the Torah is. You show me in the Torah where Ishmael has a covenant like Isaacs.

It is becoming painfully obvious you did not understand my post.

 

[J2hapydna]

[definitely not Christians and Muslims do not serve the same God.

Did John Quincy Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Isaac Newton etc worship the same God as Pope Gregory IX, emperor Heraclius and Justinian? I think not. So not all Christians worship the same God. Similarly did Ummayd Caliph Yazid worship the same God as the Christian Muslim Najashi- ruler of Axum? I think not. So not all Muslims worship the same God either.

In my opinion peaceful people worship the same deity even when they follow different religions. Similarly, extremist cruel people worship the same deity although they follow different religions.

 

[SethZaddik]

I just want to drop in and add some of those pesky (for people who can't compute different religions having the same God and Prophets PBUT) facts.


It might surprise most that the focus of the majority of the Qur'an is not on Mohammed s or Ishmael pbuh or the Arabs but the children of Israel and Moses, the Hebrew Patriarchs pbut.

Sura 17 is dedicated to and named, "Children of Israel" and while Mohammed s is only mentionied 4 times Moses pbuh is mentionied in 176 verses throughout the Qur'an.

The Qur'an also acknowledges the special Covenant of Israel with Allah and literally calls them his chosen people or "preferred above all others."

2:47

"Children of Israel, call to mind the blessing (or covenant) I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others."

Quite unlike the New Testament there is no declaration of Islam as "the new Covenant" as Islam is actually an ancient Covenant going back to Ishmael and his TWELVE sons in the Torah.

And no viewing of Muslims as the "new chosen people" like I hear Christians claim they are and their doctrines like Paul's "spiritual Israel."

And while Paul claims in contradiction to the Tanakh we have today and have always known, that "angels" "ordained the Law." Meaning the Law was not given to Moses by God like the Bible says but like Paul says ordained by "angels"!!!

Find me that in the Torah!!!!

In fact the Qur'an honors both the Tanakh and Gospels and with easily reconciled differences only agrees more with the Gospels than do the epistles of the self proclaimed unauthenticated or acknowledged as one, "apostle" to "the goyim" even though Jesus pbuh said to his disciples in person, "Make disciples of all nations" and the Apostles definitely preached to all nations and didn't only preach to "the circumcised" as Paul insists and Luke passes on second hand complete with the incriminating evidence of the Jerusalem Council and its decree that he flagrantly disobeyed and mocked as for the spiritually weak, "Meat sacrificed to idols" being forbidden by the Holy Spirit and Jesus pbuh (Revelation, "doctrine of Balaam") was said to be fine by Paul as long as the circumcision faction wasn't around or "spiritually weak brothers."

So if anything the Qur'an, Gospels (if you take son of God as titular only, something others called him affectionately, which makes sense as it is "Our Father, who art in Heaven", not "Jesus/My Father."

"Call no man father... for you have one Father in Heaven."

Jesus pbuh taught that God is the Father of ALL, not just himself.)....

Qur'an Gospels and Tanakh with the Epistles of John, Jude, James, 2 Peter and Revelation all agree with each other more than the Epistles of Paul.

If anything one should wonder if Jesus pbuh, has the same God as Paul or did Paul mock Jesus pbuh by making him a God who made Paul a "prophet."

A curious story that had little effect on the world until Constantine made Christianity the state religion, Marcion was the early champion of Paul and Justin Martyr didn't mention Paul once, but did Marcion.

Soon after Iranaeus is calling Paul "The Apostle" and Marcion a heretic, the church would end up being absorbed but the Paulinist won the day.


Jesus pbuh lost.

Until Mohammed s brought back the Way, the straight Path.

 

[SethZaddik]

Further, Muslims are encouraged to read the Bible and literature of other religions and to seek knowledge anywhere and everywhere.

The general rule is if it doesn't contradict or otherwise violate the Qur'an it may well be the Word of God and to not read it because the writings are no longer original is foolish as the Qur'an solves that issue if it comes up, if the Qur'an doesn't correct it it can be taken seriously.

Even Apocrypha and philosophy is encouraged, the rejected books are often some of the most revealing, Islam is responsible for ressurecting Greek philosophy and scientific texts and using them to the point Europe would have never emerged from its Dark Ages without Islam.

And it has influenced it ever since, influenced Catholic and Jewish mysticism, formed the foundation of modern science, medicine, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, all at a time Europe was killing scientific inquirers as sorcerers in league with Satan.

So Islam might be the youngest of the three Abrahamic religions but it has contributed the most to modern religion and science.

Allahu Akbar

 

[YmirGF]

Further, Muslims are encouraged to read the Bible and literature of other religions and to seek knowledge anywhere and everywhere.

The general rule is if it doesn't contradict or otherwise violate the Qur'an it may well be the Word of God and to not read it because the writings are no longer original is foolish as the Qur'an solves that issue if it comes up, if the Qur'an doesn't correct it it can be taken seriously.

Even Apocrypha and philosophy is encouraged, the rejected books are often some of the most revealing,

Oddly, this supposedly informed view is almost the essence of what confirmation bias is. It's hard to put it more succinctly, actually. Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

Islam is responsible for ressurecting Greek philosophy and scientific texts and using them to the point Europe would have never emerged from its Dark Ages without Islam.

That is a bit of a stretch. Islamic scholars, not Islam, certainly did help hasten things alone in Europe though. Curiously, the Europeans were able to do so much more with the information provided that those who had held onto the knowledge for generations could possibly imagine. One can only wonder why that is.

And it has influenced it ever since, influenced Catholic and Jewish mysticism,

I have to admit, I've never heard this claim before. Heaven forbid the converse is the reality.

formed the foundation of modern science, medicine, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, all at a time Europe was killing scientific inquirers as sorcerers in league with Satan.

Again, it was some Islamic scholars and hardly the entire religion. Islam did not pave the way, it was some brilliant thinkers who happened to be Muslims that paved the way. Let's give credit where credit is due. It's a rather important difference.

So Islam might be the youngest of the three Abrahamic religions but it has contributed the most to modern religion and science.

Not so much. It provided the blueprint, but non-Muslim thinkers quickly left Muslim scholars well behind as their own dark age of understanding began.

For example, what, if anything, has Islam or even Muslim scholars contributed to science in the last 500 years... you know, that period when "modern" science literally exploded so many myths from the past.

The answer is: Virtually nothing.

 

[SethZaddik]

After the transfiguration...

(Jesus to the disciples p)

Matthew 17:10

And the disciples asked him, "Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" He replied, "Elijah IS indeed coming and WILL RESTORE ALL THINGS; but I tell you that Elijah has already come but they did not recognize him...

There are multiple Elijahs in Jesus *p* statement, one already came and one that is to come and restore all things, establish a literal Kingdom of God "restore all things" and end religous persecution and the suppression of knowledge allowing man to advance in the desert to an Empire from Spain/N. Africa to China that had freedom of religion, Qur'an Sura 2 "There is no compulsion in religion." Women's rights, almost identical to men's, Jews and Christians and Magians/Zoroastrian s and Sabaeans all lived in relative equality and flourished compared to Dark Ages Europe and any Empire in known history.

Mohammed *s* was every bit the "Elijah to come" and the Kingly element or warrior element to the dual Messiah prophecy at Qumran, a Priestly and a Military were expected and the people of Qumran are according to the Semitic Mandaen who go back to Nazarenes of John the Baptist say Qum is Nazareth in a short document called Harain Gawaitha tracing the Sabaean Mandaeans back there and they all ended up in Arabia, Nazarenes, Ebionites, Jews, and the last Jewish Kingdom was converted Himyarite and Qatabanian Kings in Arabia, I believe. They were not willing to go with the program and suffered defeat but peace was made and everyone prospered until briefly the Crusades and Mongol invasions but always bounced back.

 

[SethZaddik]

Oddly, this supposedly informed view is almost the essence of what confirmation bias is. It's hard to put it more succinctly, actually. Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

That is a bit of a stretch. Islamic scholars, not Islam, certainly did help hasten things alone in Europe though. Curiously, the Europeans were able to do so much more with the information provided that those who had held onto the knowledge for generations could possibly imagine. One can only wonder why that is.

I have to admit, I've never heard this claim before. Heaven forbid the converse is the reality.

Again, it was some Islamic scholars and hardly the entire religion. Islam did not pave the way, it was some brilliant thinkers who happened to be Muslims that paved the way. Let's give credit where credit is due. It's a rather important difference.

Not so much. It provided the blueprint, but non-Muslim thinkers quickly left Muslim scholars well behind as their own dark age of understanding began.

For example, what, if anything, has Islam or even Muslim scholars contributed to science in the last 500 years... you know, that period when "modern" science literally exploded so many myths from the past.

The answer is: Virtually nothing.

Nothing I said was remotely a stretch especially about the influence of Islam with regards to giving Europe the scientific knowledge it learned that almost single handedly is responsible for getting Europe out of the Dark Ages and supplying, inspiring, the intellectual Renaissance.

It's sad you think it is a stretch considering how true and known it is.

 

[SethZaddik]

Oddly, this supposedly informed view is almost the essence of what confirmation bias is. It's hard to put it more succinctly, actually. Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

That is a bit of a stretch. Islamic scholars, not Islam, certainly did help hasten things alone in Europe though. Curiously, the Europeans were able to do so much more with the information provided that those who had held onto the knowledge for generations could possibly imagine. One can only wonder why that is.

I have to admit, I've never heard this claim before. Heaven forbid the converse is the reality.

Again, it was some Islamic scholars and hardly the entire religion. Islam did not pave the way, it was some brilliant thinkers who happened to be Muslims that paved the way. Let's give credit where credit is due. It's a rather important difference.

Not so much. It provided the blueprint, but non-Muslim thinkers quickly left Muslim scholars well behind as their own dark age of understanding began.

For example, what, if anything, has Islam or even Muslim scholars contributed to science in the last 500 years... you know, that period when "modern" science literally exploded so many myths from the past.

The answer is: Virtually nothing.

And for the record, in response to you being unaware of the influence of Islamic mysticism on Jewish and Catholic, I am sure there are many more things you are not aware of.

Your comment is indicative of such being the case.

 

[SethZaddik]

I will make this simple.

Europe was in the Dark Ages, scientific inquiry punishable by death, no medicine or learning anything but Church teachings or face the Inquisition, people were murdered for silly superstitions and there was filth and disease everywhere.

The Islamic Empire had a paradise in Spain in Europe that was heaven by comparison and Christians and Jews lived there in a Metropolitan area with schools, hospitals, all kinds of science and philosophy to learn and ways of governing by reason and not superstitions, and by the time Europe caught wind they sent the Crusaders to massacre Jerusalems inhabitants which they did and take back the city thinking they could conquer Arabia

They didn't live good or last long in Jerusalem and Saladin took it back, and in an act of kindness that earns him the admiration of Christians today, let them stay.

 

[SethZaddik]

Baghdad was also a center of learning where Jews and Christians learned a great deal and Islam has always been the religion to see past differences and at the time everyone else did too, just not in Europe.

We see the same element today in America, Muslims perfectly willing to acknowledge other religions right to exist and be judged by God according to God's decisions and it is repeated in the Qur'an that Heaven is definitely available to other religions, it mentions the four or five specific to the day but Hindus have been included as People of the Book and they are not Monotheists so it is even more liberal than Christianity.

 

[YmirGF]

Nothing I said was remotely a stretch especially about the influence of Islam with regards to giving Europe the scientific knowledge it learned that almost single handedly is responsible for getting Europe out of the Dark Ages and supplying, inspiring, the intellectual Renaissance.

It's sad you think it is a stretch considering how true and known it is.

It is not because of Islam. It is because of a handful brilliant Muslims who, in turn, helped train brilliant non-Muslim students. Islam has no claim on the inherent intelligence of these relatively few Muslims who did influence non-Muslims of the time. The credit must be given to those individual scholars, not to their religion. So, yes, it is quite a stretch to credit Islam for their bold vision and understanding. It's like Judaism hijacking Einstein and claiming his discoveries, ideas and efforts were the result of Judaism and that we should thank Judaism for his groundbreaking work. Same idea with Christianity taking credit for Galileo, Isaac Newton etc. The idea of a religion getting credit is simply put, completely absurd.

 

[YmirGF]

And for the record, in response to you being unaware of the influence of Islamic mysticism on Jewish and Catholic, I am sure there are many more things you are not aware of.

Your comment is indicative of such being the case.

Forgive me, @SethZaddik but I have learned to take the claims of Muslims with several boxes of salt. If you could kindly cite a few non-Muslim sources that verify you claim, I'd appreciate it.

 

[YmirGF]

Baghdad was also a center of learning where Jews and Christians learned a great deal and Islam has always been the religion to see past differences and at the time everyone else did too, just not in Europe.

We see the same element today in America, Muslims perfectly willing to acknowledge other religions right to exist and be judged by God according to God's decisions and it is repeated in the Qur'an that Heaven is definitely available to other religions, it mentions the four or five specific to the day but Hindus have been included as People of the Book and they are not Monotheists so it is even more liberal than Christianity.

What you are describing is the innovation of various scholars over the years. As with all things in Islam, there are, no doubt, many other scholars who dispute these "liberal" views. The thing you are not telling us is that no one person or group speaks for Islam, period. Full Stop.

 

[J2hapydna]

Oddly, this supposedly informed view is almost the essence of what confirmation bias is.

This is true. Although, I think the more interesting message in Seth's post is that Muslims have different views. Muslims are not a homogeneous mass. For example I try to look at an issue in light of Israelite history, the Bible and make sure I can see a continuation. I don't think the Bible is abrogated or corrupt. I believe that the Umayyad Caliphs misunderstood Islam in the same way that Paul / Constantine misunderstood Jesus. So you can see that my view is slightly different than Seth.

The Umayyads in my opinion were children of pagan Arabs who didn't know MP or the Bible very well. After all they had violently opposed MP for most of MPs life. In addition they were also negatively influenced by views of the psychopath Heraclius and his Justinian code in the Roman Empire. So, I discount the Umayyid social understanding of Islam. Instead I prefer to see Islam in light of the Axumite Empire where MP worked with its just Christian ruler, Najashi.

 

[SethZaddik]

What you are describing is the innovation of various scholars over the years. As with all things in Islam, there are, no doubt, many other scholars who dispute these "liberal" views. The thing you are not telling us is that no one person or group speaks for Islam, period. Full Stop.

I didn't tell you that because it was not asked and isn't the conversation.

No one person or group speaks for Islam, no kidding!!!

1.5 billion people can't be controlled by one person or sub sects.

What the hell was your point?

 

[SethZaddik]

Forgive me, @SethZaddik but I have learned to take the claims of Muslims with several boxes of salt. If you could kindly cite a few non-Muslim sources that verify you claim, I'd appreciate it.

You can just Google it, it is common knowledge.

Biggot. "Take the claims of Muslims with..."

So... you are THAT brainwashed, huh?

Hilarious, and sad.

 

[SethZaddik]

It is not because of Islam. It is because of a handful brilliant Muslims who, in turn, helped train brilliant non-Muslim students. Islam has no claim on the inherent intelligence of these relatively few Muslims who did influence non-Muslims of the time. The credit must be given to those individual scholars, not to their religion. So, yes, it is quite a stretch to credit Islam for their bold vision and understanding. It's like Judaism hijacking Einstein and claiming his discoveries, ideas and efforts were the result of Judaism and that we should thank Judaism for his groundbreaking work. Same idea with Christianity taking credit for Galileo, Isaac Newton etc. The idea of a religion getting credit is simply put, completely absurd.

I can tell you didn't learn history, ever.