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Featured Do the gospels report that Jesus liked his food and wine with nasty people, sometimes to excess?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by oldbadger, Oct 9, 2021.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    This isn't intended as a dig at Jesus, by the way.
    The thought that he enjoyed his food and drink makes me feel good for him.
    That he ate and drank with unpopular folks I don't mind at all.
    But some Christians can be infuriated by the idea that their God might have got inebriated sometimes.

    Here are some references for your scrutiny and comments:-

    Mark {2:15} And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. {2:16} And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

    Mark {7:15} There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which
    come out of him, those are they that defile the man.


    Matthew {11:16} But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, {11:17} And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. {11:18} For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

    Luke {7:32} They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We
    have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. {7:33} For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. {7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

    John {2:7} Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. {2:8} And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it. ]{2:9} When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) ....
     
  2. Lain

    Lain Well-Known Member

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    They report that He was called a drunkard and a glutton but not that He was a drunkard and a glutton. This accusation probably also was an allusion to this Law in Deuteronomy:

    "And if any man has a disobedient and contentious son, who hearkens not to the voice of his father and the voice of his mother, and they should correct him, and he should not hearken to them; then shall his father and his mother take hold of him, and bring him forth to the elders of his city, and to the gate of the place: and they shall say to the men of their city, This our son is disobedient and contentious, he hearkens not to our voice, he is a reveller and a drunkard. And the men of his city shall stone him with stones, and he shall die; and thou shalt remove the evil one from yourselves, and the rest shall hear and fear."
     
  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    No they don't. What the Matthew and Luke passages relate is Jesus making an exasperated joke, to the effect that there is no pleasing some people.

    But he certainly is said to have frequented the company of undesirables.
     
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  4. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

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    Infuriated. Lol. Christianity’s like anything else. One grows within that field of study. Hopefully these “infuriated” people will.come to enlightenment. I’m sure there’s a lot more serious things one could be “infuriated” about if one wanted to be “infuriated”
     
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's just a little annoying that people would believe his enemies instead of what he said about it himself. So no, it's not infuriating that Jesus would get drunk. It just never happened in the Bible. If you could actually prove it then that would be fine.

    Where does Jesus ever admit to being inebriated? That was the slander of his enemies as Jesus points out in Luke 7:32 which you cite yourself. Jesus drank in social settings but not to excess. The Pharisees despised him for this because they were clearly jealous. They wanted attention; but he gave it to "sinners" instead. So it's no surprise they made up jokes about him being drunk with the sinners. But Jesus himself makes it clear that he hung out with the sinners because he wanted to heal them (that is heal in a spiritual sense from sinfulness). See Mark 2:17. It was not because he was there to join in with the drunks.

    He had the holy Spirit without measure so that included, joy and peace of mind. There was nothing wine could offer him he didn't have better already.
     
    #5 74x12, Oct 9, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
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  6. Dropship

    Dropship Member

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    Whoa! Not all Christians think he was God, because he made it clear a number of times that he wasn't God..:)
    For examp he said- “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
     
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  7. `mud

    `mud Just old
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    I'm pretty sure that the juice in their pouches weren't totally fresh,

    thank `God` for yeast, `let there be frost on the grapes, tomorrow we feast`

    catch that chicken, will you, fire the coals, poor the wine, and worship your creator !
     
    #7 `mud, Oct 9, 2021
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  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was and is good.
    That passage is actually Jesus showing that He is God.
     
    #8 Brian2, Oct 9, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I cannot see the connection to Deut, I just see what was being said.

    So Jesus did NOT eat or drink to excess, and did NOT sit with very nasty people. Correct?
     
  10. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I can't see any joke myself, but back to those passages, so 'they' never saw him eating and drinking to excess, and never saw him sitting with very undesirable folks....is that right?

    Or were 'they' half right, half wrong..... he DID sit with very nasty folks but didn't eat and drink to excess with them?
     
  11. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Some Christians can be so maddened in anger over the idea that Jesus drank a lot of wine.
    If it is true then I like him all the more for it.
    So far on this thread I have read that reports that Jesus sat with very bad company are true, but that he didn't eat and drink to excess with them are not true, even though all four claims exist in the same sentence.
     
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  12. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Me prove it? I'm just reading what two gospels report.
    So........ it's all lies, and he never did sit with very nasty company, nor eat and drink to excess.
    No sinners, Tax collectors, wine or meat to excess. Right?


    How do you know that? Could you give me a source that tells us that Jesus didn't enjoy his wine and meat to excess, sometimes?

    Question:- You didn't mention the claim that Jesus ate too much meat. You just focus on his drinking. Why is that?

    In Matt 2:15-17 it reads that Jesus DID eat and drink with bad company. How do you know that Jesus didn't want to heal folks physically at these places?

    Why did Jesus make six large firkins on wine at the Cana wedding? Why would he want to do that?
     
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  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Did you read my post?
    Did you read where I wrote in my OP :-
    But some Christians can be infuriated by the idea that their God might have got inebriated sometimes..

    Do you think that Jesus did sit in bad company, eating and drinking to excess sometimes?
     
  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Ha ha! If Jesus loved his meat and wine with 'bad' folks, then I like him a bit more for that.
     
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  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hello..... the above was posted to another member.

    But were they lying when they said that Jesus had his meat and wine in bad company, sometimes to excess? If God wants to eat (or drink) too much...does it matter?
     
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  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Update:-
    So did Jesus eat and drink in bad company, as in
    Mark {2:16} And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

    ....and did he sometimes eat and drink more than usual?, as in
    Matthew {11:17} And saying, ........... {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

    Luke 7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
    And....much wine:-
    John ]{2:9} When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew)

    Special Note:- Why has nobody questioned the claim that Jesus sometimes ate to excess? Is that alright?
     
  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It literally never says that. You're conflating two separate things. You're claiming that since he ate with them he must have eaten and drunk to excess. That's not necessarily true however.

    It just simply says what his enemies said about him and what he said about what they said. He does not confirm their accusations. He actually tells us why he ate with sinners in Matthew 9:11-13.
    Unless you have evidence that he did it; then I would say it's safe to assume he didn't. Because other scriptures make it clear that it's not good to be drunk. Also the accusation that he ate too much is not true either.
    If you read the context of Matthew 9:12 You will see he meant that he was healing them by calling them to repentance.

    Matthew 9
    11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
    12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
    13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    So even though Jesus often healed people of physical ailments in this case he clearly means he was healing them from sins. It's clearly an analogy in context.
    In the story; it seems like he doesn't even want to do the miracle; but since she had faith he did it for her.

    There were a lot of guests and it would be an embarrassment to run out of wine for the family. Like any wedding party the family wanted it to go smoothly. Especially with important guests there.

    He did it as a favor to his mother because she had faith; he didn't do it for himself. (John 2:3-5)
     
  18. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    No, 74x12, I'm not claiming anything!
    I was asking a question. Did you see the question mark?
    So Jesus DID eat with bad people, sit with bad people, eating and drinking. Correct?

    Now those same folks who saw him, some of them must have claimed that (sometimes?) ate and drank too much, and you have written about that :-
    That's not necessarily true however
    ................. so it could be true? That he did sometimes enjoy a lot of food and wine?
    And if he did, is that so bad?

    So Jesus DOES admit that he DID eat/drink with bad people, true?
    Now..... enemies, you say. Not every person who makes a critical observation is an enemy, you know, they might just be observers.

    Witness claims are a form of evidence, 74x12. I don't have any evidence, but their claims are a form of evidence.

    Jesus didn't follow 'other scriptures', 74x12, he redacted hundreds of them, according to much of Christianity.

    Look at what he said:-
    Mark {7:15} There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

    I think that verse is very clear..... he was definitely redacting all the sacrificial (and maybe the ceremonial) laws and he was definitely not going to walk with the (self/) righteous, he wanted to be and sit with the people that he knew.
    74x12, ANY people that Jesus EVER sat and drunk with were sinners.
    Do you think that Jesus would have judged his friends if they ate or drank a bit much?

    Jesus made six firkins of wine because he wanted to........ nobody made him do that.
    Do you think that Jesus's mother liked a lot of wine?[/QUOTE]
     
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    What Jesus is saying is that when John the Baptist was preaching, people complained he was a crazy ascetic (locusts, wild honey, etc) but, now that Jesus is preaching, the self same people complain that he enjoys eating and drinking! Oy vey, you can't win, there's just no pleasing some folk.

    This is a light-hearted passage about the tittle-tattle associated with his ministry. There is nothing here to say, one way or the other, whether or not Jesus ever ate or drank to excess.
     
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  20. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Dear oldbadger,

    If you read above closely, what is said is that it does not matter that you act civil and only associate with civil-acting others, if you within yourself still plot and scheme and judge and use and con your fellow Man.


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
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