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Do the Axis Powers Have a Moral Obligation to Attack the US?

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by Heyo, Sep 24, 2020.

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  1. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    In the hypothetical situation that seems more and more probable that Donald Trump loses the election and refuses to step down, do Germany, Italy and Japan have the moral obligation to restore democracy in the US? After all, that is what the US helped to do to us and pretended to do in other countries all over the world.
     
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  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Are you sure this shouldn't be in 'Jokes'?
     
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Only if the US declares war on one of them.

    On the other hand, civil war in the USA, while very unlikely, no longer seems wholly out of the question. If that were to happen I can imagine the EU and Japan assisting in some way those forces trying to preserve the rule of law and democracy, and Russia assisting those trying to overthrow it. It would be an irony of history if Russia and the EU were to find themselves fighting a proxy war in the USA.

    But democracy looks as if it is under threat in the USA. If the Supreme Court loses popular legitimacy, all hell could break loose.
     
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  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    As for Italia and Deutschland, we are de facto US military colonies since 1945 so the US cannot declare war on themselves....:p
     
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  5. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Are you laughing?
     
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  6. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    We were until 1989.
    And a country in war with itself is called a civil war. Would we be neutral in such a war or on the side of the democratic forces?
     
  7. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I guess it has never happened in American history.
    They all stepped down...
    I understand you are speaking hypothethically...
    The EU would side with democracy, yes.:)
     
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  8. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I do not think the EU would be neutral. You would expect statements of strong support for the legal and constitutional order. Whether it would get involved in practical support for fighters, and what form that would take, is another thing. It is quite likely that the fighting would at least initially be between rival fairly extreme groups, like the brownshirts vs communists in Germany. Nobody would want to exacerbate that.
     
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  9. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I'm fully cognisant of what happening in America. I'm less certain that referring to Germany and Japan (in particular) as 'Axis Powers' is very fair or non-insulting (if done with any seriousness).
     
  10. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I think it is alluding to the potential historical irony of the role-reversal and as such is quite an acute (certainly legitimate) commentary on how times have changed.
     
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  11. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Yeah. I know. It's just kinda...well...tongue in cheek, right?
    On that spectrum, I get it, and it's chuckle worthy. As a serious commentary on where the world is heading? Nup.

    Just my opinion though. I just figured the OP might have been dating it somewhat fascetiously.
     
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  12. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I like "fascetiously". Sort of like facetiously, but with a bit of a Heil Hitler thrown in. :D
     
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  13. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    It was more intended as a different angle view (and maybe a bit of hyperbole) but not as a joke. I was seriously thinking about our responsibility if the US turns into a dictatorship.
    The USA was crucial in giving us our Grundgesetz and democracy. I think we owe them.
     
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  14. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    To be serious for a moment, it may be that people living in the USA don't fully realise the degree to which people outside are shocked and appalled by the undermining of the institutions of democracy that seems to be occurring under this president. Almost every institution of the state has been subverted, using the power of the presidency to sack or sideline professionals and replace them with yes-men, family members or people manifestly unqualified for the job but who are loyal. It seems to apply to everything, from the EPA and CDC to the CIA and, most alarmingly of all, the judiciary. The military seems to the one institution that has been more or less unaffected. And now we see vigilante mobs with guns being encouraged.

    Heyo I think is in Germany. I am in the UK. We know our history. Everybody always thinks it can't happen here, we're different, it will blow over. I'm not saying we predict civil war or an authoritarian takeover, but to someone sitting in Europe neither outcome is out of the question.
     
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  15. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Slightly tangentially, @Heyo 's post put me in mind, for just a moment, of these stock stereotypes in war films:



    :D
     
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  16. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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  17. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    I dunno .... comes the New Year ...
     
  18. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Our involvement in WW2 was mainly due to Axis aggression against their neighbors. Even France and the UK didn't declare war on Germany until 1939. If the goal was to restore democracy, they would have declared war in 1933 (or in 1922 against Italy).

    If we go down the same path of history, we'd have to have an Anschluss with Canada first, then an invasion of Mexico next. Then we will have a conference in Munich where Trump can promise never to invade other countries again, but if he does, then you've got the green light to declare war.

    Thing is, to oppose fascism in the U.S. means opposing capitalism, but our love of money and profit has trumped our love of freedom. Even other countries such as yours have benefited from capitalism, so any outside intervention in U.S. politics will be seen as some kind of international corporate venture to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. It's never been about any higher, noble causes such as "freedom" or "democracy."
     
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  19. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    That’s what I ask myself every time I hear Trump speak.
     
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  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Believe me. Some of us in the US do see what is going on and are appalled by what we see. But, for some reason, even when we speak out, we are ignored and ridiculed.

    I'm at the place where I am seriously looking into immigration/political asylum.
     
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