Do the abrahamic God dislike sex outside of marriage?

[loverofhumanity]

About 25% of all abortions in Canada are from married women. It used to be 35%, but has decreased as the number of married women fell.

I have a relative who has 4 children to 3 women non married. The children are all separated with no central home. Police are often called to settle violent disputes.

Im not saying marriage is perfect as many go wrong but I think children deserve a stable family life and home with parents who are committed in a marriage.

 

[epronovost]

No it's not, and any logical person would understand that. But I am not going to waste my time explaining why it's not because obviously you have your mind made up.

Yes...position of authority being denied to women on the sole basis of their gender isn't sexism. Of course. I think you are a bbit in denial on that point.

sexism

noun

1. prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't need the reason to understand the consequences. The consequences is sexism and inequalities. You can keep faith that your prophet will return from the dead and tell you everything and anything that he didn't provide in hte first place, but don't gargarise yourself in the fact that your religion defends gender equality when it only does so to a limited extant. Be honest about your own faith and, maybe, disagree with it on a point or two once in a while.

Is nature sexist because it gave women the opportunity to procreate and not men?

Different ‘roles’ does not constitute sexism. Neither in nature or the Bahá’í Faith.

What we should be looking for are things like do women have equal pay. In society women do not enjoy equal pay but in Bahá’í society they already do.

So in your view God discriminates against men because we can’t conceive children? Because if you want to single out the Bahá’í Faith then you should equally be complaining why man’s role is not equal to women’s with regard to childbirth.

I believe if you sincerely believe in equality you should be asking why men too have been disadvantaged. I believe you’re getting equality mixed up with roles. It’s only a role that nature has allocated to women just as Baha’u’llah has allocated a certain function to men.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have a relative who has 4 children to 3 women non married. The children are all separated with no central home. Police are often called to settle violent disputes.

Im not saying marriage is perfect as many go wrong but I think children deserve a stable family life and home with parents who are committed in a marriage.

I have at least 8 half siblings spread out among multiple marriages and relationships. I really don't know how many children my dad has; I can only estimate based on what I've found through Facebook. More than one of them will never know I exist unless they were told about me.

Anyway, I agree with what you've said here.

 

[epronovost]

Is nature sexist because it gave women the opportunity to procreate and not men?

First, of men procreates. They simply don't bear children in a womb.

Second nature, in and on itself, cannot discriminate since it doesn't have a will nor intent. That's why we can't say that nature is murderous or cruel either despite the fact that brutal deaths, agony and despair commonplace in it.

Different ‘roles’ does not constitute sexism.

It's absolutely the very definition of sexism. Here it is, just for you.

sexism

noun

1. prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Discrimination on the basis of sex is thus sexism, especially when it pertains to things that women can and might want to do (like soldiering for example). Or things which has influence over their personnal lives, their place in society and the perception of others (like sitting at the administrative head of an organised religion they belong too). It would be like saying that women not having the right to vote isn't sexism because they have the privilege of risking their life and health to bear children.

Equality isn't a point scoring exercise. It's about power, respect, authority and liberty. The Baha'i faith doesn't grant the same liberty, power, respect and authority to women than to men as it reserves its position of utmost respect, power and authority exclusively to men.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Second nature, in and on itself, cannot discriminate since it doesn't have a will nor intent.

But nature, through natural selection and biological evolution as a whole, has still resulted in innate biological differences between males and females.

That's why we can't say that nature is murderous or cruel either despite the fact that brutal deaths, agony and despair commonplace in it.

But they obviously occur, regardless of what humans think of it. Nature just is. It's reality.

 

[epronovost]

But nature, through natural selection and biological evolution as a whole, has still resulted in innate biological differences between males and females.

Yes, but those differences are of no inherant effect on their status in human society. We have made choices and set different value and worth on those different attributes and then some (we have over generalised and stereotyped a lot too). Note that men are different from one another as are women and so are our shapes, abilities and interests. The fact that people are different and than men and women in general are different doesn't make them inherently unequal that would be making a fallacious appeal to nature.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, but those differences are of no inherant effect on their status in human society. We have made choices and set values on those attributes and then some. Note that men are different from one another as are women and so are our shapes, abilities and interests.

There are generalities, yet individuals variances still exist. We are both individuals with our own genetic history and with our environmental circumstances, and social creatures where generalities exist.

 

[epronovost]

There are generalities, yet individuals variances still exist. We are both individuals with our own genetic history and with our environmental circumstances, and social creatures where generalities exist.

Indeed, generalities exist, but those generalities have no inherant effect on the social position of population or classes of individuals only in general distribution of individual in various position. Men being stronger than women in general for example doesn't mean women cannot be strong, only that more men are strong. Preventing women to do things that requires high level of physical strength on the basis of their sex is absurd and discriminatory since some women can do such things and might want to do them. In the same vein, placing a higher level of respect and prestige on strength than let say grace for example is also a choice made by many societies and one with ramifications that aren't blind to generalities.

In the end, I'm not calling the Baha'i faith sexist because it says women can give childbirth, but because it denies political roles within its organisation at the key decisional points on the basis of gender. There is nothing that makes men more apt to lead than women. Gender roles are inherently sexist since they reduce individuals to generalities and creates imbalance in power, respect, authority and liberty between people of various genders.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have at least 8 half siblings spread out among multiple marriages and relationships. I really don't know how many children my dad has; I can only estimate based on what I've found through Facebook. More than one of them will never know I exist unless they were told about me.

Anyway, I agree with what you've said here.

I never went through anything that bad but at an early age my family broke up and that devastated me all my life. I couldn’t focus on study. Left school early. My entire life was a mess. Now I’m happily married for 42 years and begun studying again. Id say I lost about 15 years of my life to depression after my family broke up. It’s very difficult but over time the wounds heal leaving scars.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Indeed, generalities exist, but those generalities have no inherant effect on the social position of individuals only in general distribution of individual in various position. Men being strong than women in general doesn't mean women cannot be strong for example, only that more men are strong. Preventing women to do things that requires high level of physical strength on the basis of their sex is absurd and discriminatory since some women can do such things and might want to do them. In the same vein placing a higher level of respect and prestige on strength than let say grace for example is also a choice made by many societies.

In the end, I'm not calling the Baha'i faith sexist because it says women can give childbirth, but because it denies political roles within its organisation at the key decisional points on the basis of gender. There is nothing that makes men more apt to lead than women.

I also agree with you here as I do believe in a strict meritocracy of sorts. I'm not a fan of the Baha'i Faith, to be sure. I just believe in honesty.

But there's still biological and instinctual differences between males and females. Regardless of those, I can still realize that there's individuals who fall outside of the norm.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I never went through anything that bad but at an early age my family broke up and that devastated me all my life. I couldn’t focus on study. Left school early. My entire life was a mess. Now I’m happily married for 42 years and begun studying again. Id say I lost about 15 years of my life to depression after my family broke up. It’s very difficult but over time tye wounds heal leaving scars.

I'm not even going to get into all my pain, trauma and scars from my upbringing and family. It's amazing that I'm not dead right now, is all I can say.

 

[Trailblazer]

Equality isn't a point scoring exercise. It's about power, respect, authority and liberty. The Baha'i faith doesn't grant the same liberty, power, respect and authority to women than to men as it reserves its position of utmost respect, power and authority exclusively to men.

Logically speaking, that would only be true if the UHJ was "the position of utmost respect, power and authority" within the Baha'i Faith. And you know that exactly how? Do you even know the role of the UHJ?

What you have is called confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[1]It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in political and organizational contexts.[2][3][Note 2]

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

 

[epronovost]

I never went through anything that bad but at an early age my family broke up and that devastated me all my life. I couldn’t focus on study. Left school early. My entire life was a mess. Now I’m happily married for 42 years and begun studying again. Id say I lost about 15 years of my life to depression after my family broke up. It’s very difficult but over time tye wounds heal leaving scars.

To bring a different perspective, my parents broke up when I was in my early teenagerhood and it has made my relationship with both of them better. It as also improved my father in his role, forcing him to invest himself more and in a more diverse set of interraction, growing emotionally in the process. Both my parents found new spouses within 2 years of their divorce. What I found was most important wasn't so much for a couple to e united, but for the care, the love, the attention and the respect for their children to be constant and primordial. Despite their differences and their seperation both my parents held this to be of the greatest importance. Their relationship changed, but ours did not.

 

[epronovost]

Logically speaking, that would only be true if the UHJ was "the position of utmost respect, power and authority" within the Baha'i Faith. And you know that exactly how?

Because that's what they define it to be. They are the final authority on the Baha'i religion rules and practice. They are to the Baha'i faith what the Congress and the Supreme Court is to an US citizen or the Pope to Catholics.

That's the first line describing it:

The Universal House of Justice (Persian: بیت‌العدل اعظم‎) is the nine-member supreme ruling body of the Baháʼí Faith

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia

If you can name an authority within the Baha'i faith that can reverse a decision made by the UHJ please mention it. The only thing above it, as far as I can see, is their prophet who happens to be dead and thus cannot clarify his teachings or make political decision concerning the administration of his Church and their deity which, according to their own faith, doesn't meddle in this way with his creation.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not even going to get into all my pain, trauma and scars from my upbringing and family. It's amazing that I'm not dead right now, is all I can say.

I think I have told you that my pain, trauma and scars from my upbringing and family was very different from yours.
I guess you could say I was emotionally abandoned even though I had a stable home. My parents were never divorced and were married only to each other for 28 years, until my father died of a heart attack when I was 12 years old. After that all hell broke loose with my mother's drinking.

Given how many times I have wanted to die, it's amazing that I'm not dead right now, is all I can say.

 

[loverofhumanity]

First, of men procreates. They simply don't bear children in a womb.

Second nature, in and on itself, cannot discriminate since it doesn't have a will nor intent. That's why we can't say that nature is murderous or cruel either despite the fact that brutal deaths, agony and despair commonplace in it.



It's absolutely the very definition of sexism. Here it is, just for you.

sexism

noun

1. prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Discrimination on the basis of sex is thus sexism, especially when it pertains to things that women can and might want to do (like soldiering for example). Or things which has influence over their personnal lives, their place in society and the perception of others (like sitting at the administrative head of an organised religion they belong too). It would be like saying that women not having the right to vote isn't sexism because they have the privilege of risking their life and health to bear children.

Equality isn't a point scoring exercise. It's about power, respect, authority and liberty. The Baha'i faith doesn't grant the same liberty, power, respect and authority to women than to men as it reserves its position of utmost respect, power and authority exclusively to men.

Yes nature doesn’t have a will but I believe God created nature so it was a deliberate decision by God to endow women with the ability to bear children.

We believe that because God’s Manifestation made that law then there is no inequality, injustice or discrimination involved just as with nature.

 

[loverofhumanity]

To bring a different perspective, my parents broke up when I was in my early teenagerhood and it has made my relationship with both of them better. It as also improved my father in his role, forcing him to invest himself more and in a more diverse set of interraction, growing emotionally in the process. Both my parents found new spouses within 2 years of their divorce. What I found was most important wasn't so much for a couple to e united, but for the care, the love, the attention and the respect for their children to be constant and primordial. Despite their differences and their seperation both my parents held this to be of the greatest importance. Their relationship changed, but ours did not.

As long as there’s a good bond things can work out. Caring parents are a great asset in life.

 

[epronovost]

Yes nature doesn’t have a will but I believe God created nature so it was a deliberate decision by God to endow women with the ability to bear children.

We believe that because God’s Manifestation made that law then there is no inequality, injustice or discrimination involved just as with nature.

Since God as will and a personality, at least in the way you describe him, then yes he can be unjust and sexist if he so desired. Though childbirth isn't in question here.

What makes Baha'i sexist is the fact that its ruling institution is closed to women and forbids women to participate in certain military roles. Those are two things that some women can and do want to do. Nature gave them the basic aptitudes and these particular women cultivated them and yet it's denied from them, not by nature, but by a religion's rule. That's discrimination and thus sexism without an ounce of a doubt since men don't face this restriction not foisted upon them by nature itself.

PS: On the point of natural abilities note that they are all ultimately potential. Most women can have children, but not all of them do and telling them that they must or that they are lesser for not having them is, in my opinion, injurious.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Do the abrahamic God dislike sex outside of marriage?

Monogamy is pretty common, I thought, so there's no need to limit this to the Abrahamic God. I think it really depends on what individuals want to do, but I see monogamy as generally useful. However, in history it obviously doesn't run well as a tool , and the people who wish to forgo it, do so. Of concern, is when they engage in it, and then forgo it, for that only means abuse and pain for those dependent on the contract which they destroy