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Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, May 19, 2015.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Never anything like that happened.
    Regards
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    There are people here who believe that Jesus is god.
    If one doesn't believe that; then of course one is not addressed by me.

    Regards
     
  3. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Well of course there are Christians that have been taught that, and believe it.

    But it isn't actually in the Bible.

    *
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Active Member

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    Ingledsva,
    Let's look at Psalm 110 again.

    This is called a Psalm of David. Why? Because David wrote it. IF HE WROTE IT, HE CANNOT BE THE LORD SPOKEN TO BY YHWH/Jehovah.

    Verse 1: 'The LORD (YHWH/Jehovah) said unto my (David's) Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

    To be absolutely certain that this is the correct rendering of the passage let's have it confirmed by the New Testament prophecies.

    Acts 2:34, 35: ' For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.'

    I Corinthians 15:25: 'For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.'

    Hebrews 1:13: 'But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    So, David's Lord is JESUS CHRIST. There is therefore a difference between 'bowing down' to King David, and the worship offered to the Lord Jesus Christ. True worship is IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH. This is the way in which we are expected to worship God.

    Jesus Christ has a throne in heaven. This is quite different from the earthly thrones of earthly kings. For a start there is ONLY ONE THRONE IN HEAVEN! There is ONLY ONE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. There is ONLY ONE KING in heaven.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Active Member

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    Carlita, Jesus Christ is the mediator whilst on earth. It is whilst on earth that Jesus Christ is BOTH human and divine. After the resurrection, the body is changed from natural to spiritual, from mortal to immortal (1 Corinthians 15: 41-58). As head of the spirtual body, Christ reigns in heaven. He sits at the right hand of the Father, in glory.
    When Jesus Christ is on earth he is BOTH natural and spiritual. The natural dies at crucifixion. The spiritual does not die. The soul of Jesus descended into sheol (the grave) for three days and nights. The spirit of God returns to his Father. After three days and nights, the spirit of God gives life back to the body, and together with the soul of Jesus Christ he is raised a new spiritual being - the firstfruits of the harvest.

    Carlita, please have a careful read of these words of Jesus, from John 14: 7-10.
    'If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from hence forth ye know him, and have seen him.
    Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.'
     
    #65 Redemptionsong, May 25, 2015
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    I understand Jesus is divine. He was sent from His Father to die for all. He has told His disciples that only His Father is good. His disciple says that Jesus is the "image of" an invisible God. His Father is One with His Son.

    Being divine doesnt make Him the Father. He is divine "because of" His "Father" not of Himself.

    If you know know me, you know the Father. Every christian is a child of their God. When we know the Christan, we know Christ. When we know Christ, we know His Father. Its also cultural. Its a marriage be the Father and Son. When two are married, they become One. They dont become each other.

    Of course the Father is in Jesus. The Father is in you just as He is in any other Christian.

    These are cultural context and metaphorical language. They arent literal. If it was, the wine and bread would be Jesus actual blood and flesh. The "Jesus is the Father" mirrors the Catholic view of the Eucharist.

    Both are divine but they are not the hosts. If they were, we would not see Jesus in the flesh. We would not see Jesus as actual bread and wine.

    I dont know why some christians cannot take metaphors seriously. The hebrew language is like that. English doesnt depend on metaphors for conveying literal relations between two "seperate" things. We dont treat them as seriously as other lanuages do. It would be incorrect to use English interpretation (non depended on metaphor) with hebrew (which is, to some extent).

    That doesnt make Jesus less important. It just means He is not His Father.


    EDIT

    I read all the JesusIsFather verses. It just says He is divine, He has a full relationship with His Father, He mirrors His Father (not is) in nature, and He puts His Father even above Himself.
     
    #66 Unveiled Artist, May 25, 2015
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
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  7. Nada

    Nada #

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    According to the holy scriptures,God the Almighty did not manifest into Jesus.You are correct though in saying God and Jesus are two separate entities.
     
  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    And that is what I stated.
    so you agree with me.

    Regards
     
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  9. Random

    Random Well-Known Member

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    I understand it perfectly, and that's all that matters (to me).
     
  10. Johnlove

    Johnlove Active Member

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    Yes and who was it that told you that lie?


    Jesus told us he and the Father are one in the same.


    (John 14:8-10) “Philip said,’ Lord, let us see the Father and then we shall be satisfied’. ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip? Said Jesus to him ‘and you still do not know me? “To have seen me is to have seen the Father, so how can you say, “Let us see the Father.”


    You did not ask me who told me that the Father and Jesus are one, but I will tell you anyway.


    Jesus told me he and the Father are one. Jesus personally told me is God.
     
  11. Nada

    Nada #

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    Jesus is not God the Almighty.Jesus is the Son of God the Almighty.Jesus specifically says that the Father gave him power.Jesus also speaks of His Father and God.God the Almighty does not have a God.God the Almighty is eternal.He has always existed.Jesus had a beginning.

    John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

    John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

    So here we clearly see that Jesus is Gods representative and receives all power from His Father.Power is given to Jesus from God the Almighty.
     
  12. Nada

    Nada #

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    Also,notice how the holy spirit is never mentioned in this union.Jesus always says he is in the Father and the Father is in him.

    John 10:29,30.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."


    No mention of the holy spirit.Where's the Trinity?



    John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

    It is clear that Jesus speaks metaphorically and not literally.Jesus displays the love and actions of God the Almighty.Jesus is Gods representative on earth.All who see Jesus and his deeds are seeing what God would do.Love is the answer.God is love.
     
  13. Johnlove

    Johnlove Active Member

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    You go on believing what you want to believe.


    I know Jesus is God because he told me he is God. Also Jesus very plainly in the following scripture says he and the Father are one.


    (John 14:8-10) “Philip said,’ Lord, let us see the Father and then we shall be satisfied’. ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip? Said Jesus to him ‘and you still do not know me? “To have seen me is to have seen the Father, so how can you say, “Let us see the Father.”


    Trying to understand God with our human minds can’t be done.


    In fact Jesus, audibly told me to stop trying to figure him out, and to just follow him.
     
  14. Nada

    Nada #

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    Many do not realize that Jesus is speaking metaphorically.He does not mean he literally is God the Almighty.No one can see God the Almighty and live.Jesus even explains this to a crowd.

    John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

    This is Jesus explaining it.So if Jesus is God the Almighty,then why is he telling the crowd they have never seen nor heard God?



    38"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

    Jesus is speaking of his Father, who is God the Almighty.Jesus is not God.
     
  15. Johnlove

    Johnlove Active Member

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    Again you have an opinion, and your understanding of the written Word, and that seems to be all you have.


    One can’t come to know God unless God teaches him or her.


    (1 Corinthians 2:10-13) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God”


    Also know something else, if one still sins he or she does not know God.


    (1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


    So truly your understanding of scripture, and your opinion does not mean much to me.


    I have seen Jesus and he told me he is God. I believe Jesus.
     
  16. Nada

    Nada #

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    Jesus came to abolish Adamic sin.Jesus was perfect,that is why he had no sin in him.He was the sacrificial lamb.Jesus was not a literal lamb,it is a metaphor.Also when it says,"and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”, " anyone who lives in God does not sin, " This means willful sinning,not everyday type sins we all do.All men on earth sin,even Christians who worship God.

    John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    Proverbs 20:9
    Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?


    John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

    How do you disregard the holy scriptures, which is Gods word, and claim to know what Gods commands?

     
    #76 Nada, May 25, 2015
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  17. Johnlove

    Johnlove Active Member

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    Read the scripture below, because you obviously don’t understand first John’s letter.


    (1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liarand his word has no place in our lives.”



    You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.



    If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless?


    Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?



    (1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”



    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”



    John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.



    Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.


    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”


    (Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
     
  18. Nada

    Nada #

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    "John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin."

    This is not true.All men sin.

    Also the last scripture,Hebrews 6:4 contradicts what you said.It speaks of those who have fallen away.Well,that is sinning right? Even after they saw the light.
     
  19. Johnlove

    Johnlove Active Member

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    You have your understanding of the written Word of God, but so do I.


    My understanding was personally given to me by Jesus. Jesus came into my living room, sat next to me. He had me open the bible to where it tells us a Christian is dead to sin.


    Jesus explained to me that he made it possible for a Christian to never sin again.


    Also you talk about scripture but do your best to discount all scripture that says a Christian will not sin.


    A Christian has been born again, begotten by God. A Christian is a Child of God.



    (1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible


    (1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.” Jerusalem Bible


    A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.


    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
     
  20. Nada

    Nada #

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    But it is impossible for Jesus to have returned to earth, and sit with you, according to scripture.He has a set time to return, and no man knows it.
     
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