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Featured Do people have to stop trusting other scriptures, to trust the Quran?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jim, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    My answer is no. I think that when we think we see contradictions between the Quran and other scriptures, we can resolve them the same way we resolve them within our own scriptures: by freely and critically re-examining our understanding of what they’re saying.
     
    #1 Jim, Aug 30, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    All are worth consideration. Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Some make the mistake of using canonization to rule out much wisdom. When the above was written, it had not occurred.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Whats wrong with contradictions?

    I know when one is talking about science or other factual study if there is a contradiction in data, it leads to incorrect results and conclusions. When there is a contradiction in scriptures, in itself it still holds the same value and interpretation depending on the perosn. The contradiction between two scriptures unique in themselves and their own right is in the eye of the beholder.

    How does contradiction affect the spiritual growth of the believer in either religion christianity or islam?
     
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  4. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Certainly, one can resolve certain contradictions with themselves, if they look at these books differently. However, that's a different matter than if the Quran and other books really agree. I don't find that they do.

    You would describe yourself as a Baha'i yes? I'll continue from this question- if you feel kindly inclined to answer. :)
     
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  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    My experience with Muslims is that it’s very hard for them to think outside a very orthodox way of looking at the Qur’an. Often the gospels will be dismissed as obsolete and/or corrupted.
     
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  6. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Good question. Another question might be, what do contradictions have to do with trusting scriptures? The reason I brought it up is that people try to discredit each other’s scriptures by claiming that they contradict each other. I’m saying that the contractions we think we see can sometimes be resolved by freely and critically examining our understanding of what they’re saying. If you’re saying that they don’t need to be resolved, in order to trust the Quran and other scriptures at the same time, I agree, and I think that’s even better.

    I always learn a lot by trying to understand the parts of scriptures that look contradictory to me, in ways that bring them into agreement with each other.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I found


    interesting, particularly ...

    Contrary to what many think, there is no Christian equivalent to Koranic "inerrancy," even among far-right evangelicals. Muslims believe the Koran is not only God's word, but God's actual speech — in other words, every single letter and word in the Koran comes directly from God. This seemingly semantic difference has profound implications. If the Koran is God's speech, and God is unchanging and perfect, then so is his speech. To question the divine origin of the Koran, then, is to question God himself, and God is not easily put in a box, well away from the public sphere.
     
  8. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Why should we be "trusting scripture" to begin with? God did not write them, and the men that did are as capable of error as we or anyone else is.
     
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  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hmm. I never really looked into contradictions in scriptures. I understand believers may unknowingly overlook contradictions for the benefit of supporting their beliefs. The Dharma in Buddhism has contradictions because it's all written by analogies and by people not inspired to keep The Buddha's words verbatim. So, at best, instead of trying to seem out contradictions as if they are just info we don't understand (as in your case), we learn of each point of view as a unique lesson in itself.

    So, in one part of The Dharma it talks more about heaven and hell and the levels of heaven there are. In other parts it talks about no heaven in the afterlife sense but the state of being of having let go everything. The latter is nibbana. So you have lineages like tibetan and some Mahayana lineages like Pure Land that have a god view in it.

    But other lineages hold there is no god view but there is a supernatural one. While other suttas dismiss supernatural all together as an attachment and not a way to enlightenment.

    Yet, thousands of people go just find without trying to solve actual not perceived discrepancies in scripture.

    Same as the Bible and Quran (any any other holy book). There are contradictions in the Bible; big ones rather than page three Adam wore red and page four blue type of thing. I remember thinking of thr ironic nature of it awhile back but haven't followed up on it just laughed.

    Yet, people go day by day as if the holy Scripture is an idol or god and not a resource about him. Even some on RF got startled and can't think of the actual Bible disappearing as if our faith depends on the Bible and not god.

    In that light, I can see why you (all) would triple check to confirm what you thought was a contradiction was just your fault. That fault mentality I never got. Instead, I read it as -oh. That's interesting. From what perspective the author of disciples saying from their point of view about the same topic-. What exactly is the lesson itself not the disparity of it.

    -

    But, yes, scripture contradictions don't need to be resolved in order for them to have importance. When you see a contradiction in scripture, do you study it until there is no contradiction anymore? What do contradictions mean to you in regards to believenngod whether or not they exist in scripture?
     
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  10. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    That’s mostly how I look at scriptures too. In fact, now I’m hard pressed to think of any contradictions within the lore and scriptures of any religion, that have troubled me. I can’t even imagine that happening, apart from thinking of part of them as true stories, or as strict rules of conduct.

    The only example I can think of now is the one I had in mind when I started this thread: the Quran denounces the idea of G_d having a son, as perverted and monstrous; while in the Bible G_d sometimes calls a king His Son, and Jesus approves of Peter calling Him the Son of God. It might be that we can learn whatever there is to learn from those stories with trying to resolve what looks on the face of it like a contradiction to some of us. For some reason I hadn’t thought of doing that in this case. Even so, I’m very happy about what I learned by trying to understand those stories in a way that brings them into agreement with each other.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    But they are two totally seperate religions. That's like my trying to find something in common with Hindu Dharma because Buddhism and Hinduism share similar culture, language, and in part (The Buddha was Hindu) practice. Just because they have something in common doesn't mean they agree with each other.

    Same with abrahamics religions. Though they are put under the same god of Abraham, according to each religion they are totally different. The god of the Jews isn't the god of christianity. He wasn't a messiah god or not and he isn't god. I just read jesus to Muslims is a prophet without any connection to divinity and divine importance.

    They are totally different religions with different gods that say different things about life and practice to its differing people.

    How do you resolve contradictions when, by their nature, the two religions Islam and Christianity are totally different?
     
  12. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    @Unveiled Artist LOL! Now I’m wondering if you actually wrote any of this, yourself:

    Is Buddhism one religion, or not?

    Not to me. To me, they are groups of lineages of one religion. The line that people draw between them, and all the other ideological lines they draw between people, look as imaginary to me as the lines they draw between races.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Haha. I did.

    Buddhism (Dharma Practice) is one religion.
    The core is getting rid of suffering by non-attachment in a nutshell.

    There are different schools under the umbrella. You have Mahayana, Theravada, Tibetan (Golung), and Vajrayana. They share thread in suffering, truths, etc but they differ in scripture focus and practice.

    I went to a Pure Land temple and the owner of the home and temple mentioned the lineage for lack of the right word is focused on Amida Buddha. The consensus he says its like those coming from a christian church in terms of practice and deity worship. Many people come from churches, he told me, and feel comfortable in a similar enviornment.

    The Kadampa temple I went to (part of Tibetan) has their supernatural practices in form of, say, blessings from The Buddha and deities.

    Nichiren Buddhism (Shoshu and SGI) are competely atheistic. Nichiren Shu keeps to a lot of Sidharthas teachings, so I dont know if they do or not.

    Ive yet to go to the theravada temple near me; but, I like them because they go off the pali scripture.

    Anyway,

    Mahayana scriptures from different lineages including above as well as commentaries mention about supernatural (deities, buddha blessing others say in Zen Vietnamese which Im received my precepts etc).

    While theravada not so much in supernatural but more in study and meditation practice. I wish I knew more but they are drastically different, I know that.

    The Buddha did talk about Brahma and mentioned deities. He also said they werent the way to enlightenment as a christian would say god is the way to salvation. Its all about practice.

    While other parts of the pali mention that supernatural are illusions. But the former is more pronounced than the latter.

    But I dont know how this relates to my post. Of course it is.

    I see it from the religiouse perspective rather than my own. Jews dont see jesus as the messiah; so, right there, they are different. The Jews and Muslims dont place jesus in a divinity state whether god or son of god as christians do. Salvation is a christian concept. Anything after the five books of the Torah (and many jews dont consider the christian torah as the real one, so read here on RF years ago) is even written by god. Muslim god and christian and jews all have different religious practice that come from god rather than just specific man-cultural constructions. Each religious culture describes god differently.

    If it were me, Id find it uncomfortable to try and see what these have in common as if they had just wrinkles to iron out. Its alright to learn from multiple scriptures, but to combine them and make them with the same theme is too much. As for contradictions, whats wrong with them?

    There will always be contradictions between the three religions. I dont understand why youd want to combine them.
     
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  14. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Pondering how to explain the contradiction I see in what you’re saying, and how you could be so oblivious to it, gave me a wonderful new insight into the nature of religious prejudices. I might post about it after I think about it some more.
     
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  15. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Why would you trust anything written by man unless it can be verified on such an important subject, books of faith can't be sooo....., Imo of course.
     
  16. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    That looks like a rhetorical question to me. If you’re really asking, let me know.
     
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  17. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    OK, can a book of faith be verified in what it says to be true?.
     
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  18. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    The Quran for example,trusting Muhammed that gibril spoke to him in a cave, and because Islam was an oral tradition that wasn't written down for a few hundred years you have to trust the people who recited the suras, you also have to trust that uthman didn't standardise the quran, there's a whole lot of trust required there.

    Its the same for Christianity,its taken on trust that there was a jesus or even a moses and exodus, can any of the above be verified?.
     
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    IMO that is abusing scripture, even and perhaps most of all if that scripture is believed to be literally god-given (as is the case with the Qur'an).

    Scripture is static text. It lacks the ability to acknowledge and interact with the actual people and circunstances that one might find. That puts a very extreme cap on the actual wisdom that can be found in it, until and unless someone takes the courageous but very necessary step of handling it as a tool that needs control and direction as opposed to a lynchpin of some sort.



    It will be a very unusual Muslim he who does not believe the Qur'an to come directly from God.

    Whether that translates into trusting the Qur'an, and whether it should, are a bit harder matters to settle.

    However, on a practical level, the plain fact is that whole churches rely a lot of their own scriptures. That is not necessarily wise, of course.
     
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  20. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Not that I know of, with the methods currently available. Not to say that it will never be possible.

    I want to clarify that I’m not promoting people trusting that the stories in their lore and scriptures actually happened. I think that the lore and scriptures can serve their purposes much better, and with much less harm done, if they are viewed as pure fiction. Even if they were pure fiction, it wouldn’t make any difference for what I’m saying. Using my example, suppose that the Bible stories about G_d calling Jesus His Son, and the reports in the Qurans of the same G_d denouncing as perverted and monstrous the idea of Him having a Son, are all pure fiction. Even in that case a person wouldn’t have to give up believing that those Bible stories really happened, to believe that it’s really G_d saying that in the Quran.
     
    #20 Jim, Aug 30, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
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