Do Parents Have To Teach Their Children To Be Bad?

[Shadow Wolf]

I too can not believe you can so hate something that you do not come close to understanding.

Very, very, very few actually hate god. Most, however, do have strong criticisms of the character as portrayed. And, even if someone used the word hate, it's likely no different than they would hate any other fictional character on TV. Once you loose the illusion that people who don't believe in your god hate him (and it's true, how can you actually hate something you don't believe in?), much of your confusion, including the bit about hating humanity, should clear up.

 

[agorman]

God could of easily created do gooder robots but that was not the plan. He wanted fellowship with man not lapdogs.

So He (the one of the Bible, not the real one, which nobody really knows anything about) didn't want lapdogs. But the moment humans disobey, BAM! A punishment falls from the Sky or they are sent to an eternal hell. Wow, so much for free will!

Judging by Genesis He didn't want any fellowship. He didn't want first humans to eat from the forbidden fruit, to avoid humans to become "like us" (Elohim is plural). So He (or they) didn't want us to become like Him. We were His experiment in some sort of paradisiacal ant farm, until your hated "Serpent" made his best efforts to wake us up.

The sad truth is we humans like our war and pestilence, we wallow in greed and hate our fellow man, especially f he happens to have different ideas or beliefs.

The first ones to hate people with different beliefs are Muslims, then come Christians, who satanize everything and everyone that is not strictly part of their religion. I don't know why Christians even talk about tolerance; it sounds like an ironic bad joke!

To stand before God and to be accepted to his domain his realm we must be be free as possible of the stink of hate and other sin.

"No hate"... oh that manipulation tactic is used SO much in right hand paths that has reached disgusting levels. "Don't hate politicians, don't hate criminals, don't hate terrorists, give the other cheek, don't fight against them because it's bad karma" etc... in the meantime, they keep stealing, raping and killing. Oooh but victims deserve that because they're such wretched sinners!

Of course anyone that has cracked a bible knows everyone sins. (if we use the common definition of sin). EVERYONE SINS! But that is not a bad thing, unless we live to sin. There was over 600 laws man was to obey to be forgiven. Jesus came to change the old Moasic law and he did just that.

So God changed his mind (He addmited He was wrong?! Where's His omnipotence?) and said "hmmm, I'm being too tough with humans, I'll better send Jesus to give them softer laws". Which BTW isn't true, because Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (KJV)

Its no skin off my butt if a hater is so blinded and mentally sickened by their hate for their fellow man and God (that they claim not to believe exists, now how in the Hades can a goober hate something they don't believe exists? Lol!

Why did you take the conclusion that I hate Mankind? And the Demiurge is not such a bad guy, but he's a king, so he does what he thinks he has to do to maintain his kingdom (Earth/Matrix/Maya). I believe he actually taught me many things, but I prefer to be free instead of being his servant. And he understands that. No hard feelings.

I even believe you Christians are wrong; the "Devil" is not the ruler of Earth, but the one you call "Jesus" and his mother are the ones who rule. That's why the many paintings with Jesus and the terrestrial globe.

But they only intervene when they are called, not always, and most of the time, only to avoid global disasters like nuclear war or a big asteroid.

I am truly sorry you gave up on trying to read or understand the bible. Again and with due respect your words confirm your clam that you don't know very much about Christianity. I hope one day you will again attempt to learn about God and Christianity.

The last times I came back to Christianity it was Jesus himself that ended up leading me to other paths. BTW, he revealed to me in trance that the original Christian deities are Egyptian; Mary is Isis/Hathor, Jesus is Horus, etc. So why would I go on reading lies? Maybe only to know what other people believe in.

The reason I don't believe God is based on 'human tyrants' is related to a lot of schooling, a lot of life experience, an NDE, and looking at the religion from many critical perspectives which it came out on top every time! I agree with William Craig (PhD, ThD) that Christianity is the most rational, logical explanation for how and why the universe was created by God, and why we sentient find ourselves on a beautiful planet perfectly suited for life!

Christianity is not rational. Which makes me wonder (PhD?) what the hell are Universities teaching nowadays? Just think about why God would send Himself to die on a cross to placate Himself, to forgive sinners that He, Himself created in the first place!

OK you had an NDE, but Jesus won't reveal things that are outside of Christianity to a fundamentalist Christian. Because you are so enclosed in your beliefs that you'd think you've met a demon! It's the same case as Christians who say aliens are demons. They're so enclosed in their way of thinking they can't conceive there's intelligent life on other planets! So everything strange or unknown is "demonic". What a shame.

Lastly, yes I am absolutely as humanly possible as can be that I will be forgiven for any and all sins.

I wouldn't be so sure. There are plenty of examples in the Bible where God didn't forgive sinners.

I would be profoundly lonely without God though.

I understand; he's an easy going guy. I've met Jesus many times in dreams and trance and he transmits security and peace. But I prefer to have no bosses. Maybe it would be the same to follow one master or the other, since in these years the Demiurge has been very liberating. But I feel more free with my teacher Lucifer. To each his own.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

It's not being actively taught, but rather the lack of parental guidance teaching them otherwise.
And I am no sinner, and if I ever have kids I'll have no pity or sympathy for the fool who dares call them a sinner.

When I replied earlier I said we are all sinners using the biblical/religous definition or the common definition. I clarified the definition for the word 'sin' or 'sinner' hoping to avoid what is going on here, ie misunderstanding. Here is the definition fpr Sin and sinner from the web version of Merriman and Webster;
Merriam-Webster ; sinner play noun Definition of sinner for English Language Learners : someone who has done something wrong according to religious or moral law : someone who has sinned.
So you see (I hope) I am not saying you are wrong either 'academically' and certainly you are not wrong by your heart. I am assuming that you are defining sin/sinner using the moral not the religious version of the word. That said you are more wrong than right considering the spirit of our debate/discussion.(this thread has a religious spirit). Do you agree? If you don't agree please explain.

I am here at RF to discuss subjects that are religious etc in nature. I hope to learn and share what I have learned over decades of experience and schooling. Maybe we could eliminate some pain and drama of learning difficult things by sharing knowledge. I sure wish I had something like the net and forums when I turned 17 and decided to join the Army AND get married in one blissfully and totally ignorant stroke of something less than genius*. Well to be honest and not to lie by omission, the most powerful reason I joined the army was my 16 year old gf was claiming to be preggo. I was still barely in high school and had to do something to support us. (if you want to know the rest of the story read the notes)

So anyway, lets clear up this misunderstanding and learn from the experience?The reason I say we are all sinners is I don't know anyone that can avoid all and every temptation including to or even think about bad things that feel good. Being a sinner is being human. Sin becomes a problem when we intentionally sin or indulge again and again without any desire to repent. Premeditated sin, yeah that even sounds criminal, lol. Oh man I love these long weekends, its time to spin a wrench on that Sportster engine and transmission I bought online, happy 3rd !

; { >

notes;

The Army? A very good idea, even though my MOS was administrative (PsyOps) I got to shoot some cool weapons. The best art was when I got out with a wonderful severance package and other goodies. Uncle Sam took a soaking (more like a near axpheica dunking and still is. Marriage? At that time and with that partner that was a truly dumb mistake, and like uncle sam I too am payimg X three marriages and still am....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When I replied earlier I said we are all sinners using the biblical/religous definition or the common definition.

And I am no sinner.

Do you agree? If you don't agree please explain.

Nope. Sin does not apply to me. It does not apply to children. It has to be taught and ingrained, indoctrinated and accepted. Without that, there is no sin. We only sin when we allow ourselves to think we are sinners.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Very, very, very few actually hate god. Most, however, do have strong criticisms of the character as portrayed. And, even if someone used the word hate, it's likely no different than they would hate any other fictional character on TV. Once you loose the illusion that people who don't believe in your god hate him (and it's true, how can you actually hate something you don't believe in?), much of your confusion, including the bit about hating humanity, should clear up.

How is the character portrayed? I would be willing to bet with two to one odds 95 % of those atheists that make a life work insulting or disliking Christianity (and making sure everyone knows it) haven't read the bible. I will do one better. I bet they can not define what makes a Christian, christian, then describe the rank basics of Christianity. They define God by cherry picking passages and use them out of context an attempt to smear the religion and the followers of Christianity and the christian God.[/i][/b] god etc, So I am calling BS when you say a very (X3 no less!) few actually hate God. Reverse that and you will be closer to truth!

So its true that activist atheists hate or severely dislikes Christians and Christianity, so I have no illusions. Lets move on to where you say I hate humanity, lol. I assume you were using my bad sarcasm and joke as a serious comment? That's rich. You are not that ...ummm' ignorant...wrong, word ,,,you are not that naive are you? Here was my comment you took as serious; MrMr said; "I know I am a sinner because of the thoughts I had reading some of the dim witted replies to these threads, lol.

Did you happen to notice the "lol" at the end of the sentence? Huh? Did ya? Well I enhanced it to improve its visibility....

So what I suggest to vastly improve this forum is for atheist members stop replying to Christian threads if insults are the best hey can do. Don't post new threads if the best they can do is create a thinly veiled attack on Christians masquerading as a legitimate piece. In all honesty I think only a couple of atheist RF members are knowledgeable enough to do excellent threads and engage in respectful, productive debate. The flip side of that coin is a large number do not possess a working knowledge of religious subjects including basic Sunday school knowledge of 'theology' etc.

HAPPY FOURTH (TOMORROW) EVERYONE ~

%? { >

 

[BilliardsBall]

Once you have taught them to be selfish, sinful, prideful and envious otherwise you are applying your views to their's. A child that can't talk yet see's a toy and want's that toy and grabs it from another child that can't talk. This is in our minds selfish, envious, prideful and sinful but the child has no way of knowing this. The other child starts to cry, the other child still keeps the toy, this must be a sin now because surely they know the other child is upset because of the toy being gone. This is also wrong the child could think the other child is just hungry or wants his mommy. Without being able to express logical thought there is no sin. Sins are all logical wrongs. If you accidentally kill a bug is that a sin? If you accidentally kill a deer with your car is that a sin? If you accidentally kill a person is that a sin? If you accidentally take your life is that a sin? To sin you have to knowingly and purposely do something that is wrong, you can't sin without knowledge.

As to rapists and murderers in most religions they can be forgiven for there crimes. In a lot of religions it is possible to atone for sins. Fortunately they broke government law which also relies on logic (You can only be found guilty if legally sane) so as an adult or a child they can be imprisoned for their crimes.

There are offerings in the OT for mistaken actions. Sin offerings.

My OP was whether children have inherent good or bad or mixed natures, not to get into semantics on sin.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Kids don't know any better. One of my friends, her daughter got blue food coloring all over everything in their living room, cats and dog included. But she didn't know any better, she didn't comprehend the destructiveness of such an action, nor the ability to understand what she had actually done. That is not sin, but rather that children are not at a very high level of mental/cognitive development.

No one sins. Not unless that is something you want to weigh yourself down with.

A child's brain is many, many years from reaching maturation. A person's brain is not fully developed until about their early-to-mid 20s. A person's brain goes through many changes, and as it develops different skills become easier, and certain concepts become easier to grasp.
And funny how sin has not affected me for about 14-15 years, not since I gave up on that soul crushing and emotionally draining and damaging ways. As a child I was tormented, shackled, and heavily weighed down by these ideas of sin and threats of damnation. As an adult, I am free and without these burdens, and pretty much everyone that knows me has acknowledged tremendous improvements in my emotional health. When god and sin where a part of my life I had no self-esteem, very little confidence, and had no sense of self-worth to speak of. That was taken away, but I regained it, and life has become so much better.

The OP was regarding whether children are inherently purely good, purely evil or a mix of issues and contradictions.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You must be confusing me with someone else. I never posted that that the Bible is "immoral". I have posted, however, that since I'm not a literalist, that there can be errors in the scriptures, but such errors do not invalidate the general teachings found within the Bible.

Therefore, what you are doing here is to "bear false witness", and it's not logically possible to say you believe in the Bible but then choose to ignore one of it's main teachings that's found in the Decalogue. It is unethical to blame someone for that which they didn't do, and never did I "harangue" the Bible itself.

In closing, it seems that your disingenuousness and hostility shows that you are not connecting well morally, so maybe a switch in denominations is in order whereas they hopefully would teach you how to avoid such problems. Just a recommendation.

Micah 6[8] He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice [fairness], and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Saying there are errors in the Bible IS saying the general teachings may also be invalidated. There is a problem with your stance that the Bible has "lots of good stuff in it, and lots of mistakes." A significant problem.

 

[ronandcarol]

Do Parents Have To Teach Their Children To Be Bad?
NO! I believe that a total lack of discipline will accomplish that.
Children need guidance, Train up a child in the way he should go, And even when he is old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6
ronandcarol

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How is the character portrayed? I would be willing to bet with two to one odds 95 % of those atheists that make a life work insulting or disliking Christianity

Except there aren't any atheists I know of making a "life work" of insulting and disliking Christianity. Sure, you have ones like Dawkins and Harris, but they don't "make a life work" of it. Many atheists actually get annoyed with atheists who try to take it to a level of religious zeal. That's not how it works.

So I am calling BS when you say a very (X3 no less!) few actually hate God.

They don't. They don't even believe in him. And, by your own admissions, how can you hate something you don't believe in?

So what I suggest to vastly improve this forum is for atheist

Do you realize that many theists here have their own criticisms and disliking of Christianity? Sure, some have hatred, but there is often very specific reasons for it (such as how I was at 16-17-years-old and just leaving a church that tormented me).
Myself, I am not an atheist, but yet I have my own strong dislikings of Christianity and the Bible.

Don't post new threads if the best they can do is create a thinly veiled attack on Christians masquerading as a legitimate piece.

There is a difference between criticisms and attacks.

 

[metis]

Saying there are errors in the Bible IS saying the general teachings may also be invalidated. There is a problem with your stance that the Bible has "lots of good stuff in it, and lots of mistakes." A significant problem.

False.

For example, I have my Oxford Desk Dictionary near me, and I use it but don't think that it's "divinely inspired" or "inerrant". And even if the scriptures were supposedly both, our ability to interpret certainly is not. Therefore, no matter how you look at it, errors are going to happen.

 

[BilliardsBall]

False.

For example, I have my Oxford Desk Dictionary near me, and I use it but don't think that it's "divinely inspired" or "inerrant". And even if the scriptures were supposedly both, our ability to interpret certainly is not. Therefore, no matter how you look at it, errors are going to happen.

You may have trouble interpreting the Bible more than me, an adherent. But saying 2 + 3 = 5 is untrue because some people can't interpret what 2 + 3 equals is a non sequitur.

 

[metis]

You may have trouble interpreting the Bible more than me, an adherent. But saying 2 + 3 = 5 is untrue because some people can't interpret what 2 + 3 equals is a non sequitur.

Are you omniscient, BB? Can you tell us what exactly what was in the original manuscripts, including both what was found in the original Hebrew and Koine Greek texts?

Unless you think you are omniscient, you should be able to admit that translating and interpreting some narratives can be quite difficult, and theologians that are a lot smarter on this than you would well know this. To a child, a tree is simple; but to a botanist, a tree is complex. So, let me recommend you be a "botanist", BB, and not a "child"-- just my recommendation.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Except there aren't any atheists I know of making a "life work" of insulting and disliking Christianity. Sure, you have ones like Dawkins and Harris, but they don't "make a life work" of it. Many atheists actually get annoyed with atheists who try to take it to a level of religious zeal. That's not how it works.

I guess I should be more clear and not use sayings. When I said 'makes a life work' I meant that a moderate to small percentage of atheists will criticize a christian orientated thread for no reason at all other than they do not like Christianity. However, I think the majority of atheists are live and let live. Then as you mentioned there are a hand full of professionals that mean to do harm to Christianity. I believe there is one more group and that is those that feel they are doing mankind a favor by turning society against religion, especially Christianity.

They don't. They don't even believe in him. And, by your own admissions, how can you hate something you don't believe in?

Yes I to wonder why? They venomously criticize Christianity and Christians and God for vague reasons. Sometimes God is called a 'monster' etc. There are numerous threads in every general subject forum I have visited with titles like 'God is a pedophile' or 'God commits infanticide'. These threads and replies reek with angry and mean-spirited attacks against God. When I began visiting these forums years ago I could not believe the anger etc. I have asked myself why there is so much open hate reserved for Christianity and have concluded some authors of hate are adolescents going through a natural rebellious period. Some, sadly have been psychologically or physically harmed by Christians or christian beliefs. Some really do feel Christianity in most forms is/are more dangerous than nerve gas (lol). They usually don't make a very good case to show why Christianity is evil though. Lastly I believe in biblical prophesy being able to foretell future events etc. In revelations (of John) and a few other books the scripture indicates satanic influence will increase as time moves along. Yes I believe a few atheists that hate beyond what is 'normal' are satanically influenced.

Do you realize that many theists here have their own criticisms and disliking of Christianity? Sure, some have hatred, but there is often very specific reasons for it (such as how I was at 16-17-years-old and just leaving a church that tormented me).

Yes indeed! First let me say I am very sad and angry the church and or Christians tormented you. There are churches and Christians that literally do far more harm than good. They don't realize they are doing the DEVILS work not GODS work. I sincerely wish you could have been rescued by real Christians that operate out of love, and not a twisted desire to save souls from a hell that does not exist (for humans). Those kinds of church goers are the exact opposite of what a christian should be. I had a similar experience with a church my family had attended for generations. So I divested myself from that church. I decided to read everything I could and even changed my major in college to learn what Jesus was really like. Of course the real Jesus was about love and helping those that can not help themselves. Jesus wanted to save mankind, to make us good people while on earth. This lifetime is like a finishing school and is preparing us for eternal life.

Myself, I am not an atheist, but yet I have my own strong dislikings of Christianity and the Bible.

At least I understand why you have those feelings! Maybe one day you will give Jesus a second chance. There is no need to join a church even he said that all you need is to call on him and he will be there. Me, after over ten years without a organized fellowship I found a church with a membership that seemed to like the same things I did. It was a 'biker church' but the preacher taught from the bible. I loved it when the first time I attended there were more harleys in the parking lot than cars!

There is a difference between criticisms and attacks.

I agree the content and delivery is what makes the difference between an attack or a criticism, eh?

Thanks for your reply and sharing your experiences ~

;{>

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When I said 'makes a life work' I meant that a moderate to small percentage of atheists will criticize a christian orientated thread for no reason at all other than they do not like Christianity.

I still think "life work" is too strong of a word. In Christianity, specifically in the Bible, I do not like things like "kill those who don't want me to reign over them" or "women are to be submissive to their husbands" or a blanket mandate of honoring your parents. But yet actively criticizing is something that takes up very, very little of my over all time because I'm usually off doing other/more important things. But, they come up to me to witness, they better bring their A-games because they are going to be debating, not leading a someone to a conversion.

Then as you mentioned there are a hand full of professionals that mean to do harm to Christianity.

No, I mentioned many atheists who get very annoyed and irritated by atheists who take it a level of a religious zeal and insist you have to do/believe certain things.

I believe there is one more group and that is those that feel they are doing mankind a favor by turning society against religion, especially Christianity.

Because the Bible says, among other things, to kill men who lie with men and that their blood is on their hands, I fall into this category. But I fall into this category, as do many others, despite not being atheist.

They venomously criticize Christianity and Christians and God for vague reasons. Sometimes God is called a 'monster' etc.

Hamlet was a foolish boy who's lust for vengeance was the death of just about everyone around him. Of course he isn't real, but his existentialist soliloquy was about the only he did that was dumb. Holden Caulfield is an insufferable, whiny, cynical *****. Cruella de Vill wants to skin puppies for their furs. But they are all fake, and though some more evoke stronger emotional responses, very few actually hate them, in the sense of hating someone who stole your million-dollar invention idea.
For those who don't believe in your god, or any other particular god(s), it's roughly/approximately the same idea. Criticisms, dislikings, strong words, but hating something that is fictional is getting too much into it, and if it happens you should probably remove yourself from that situation for a moment to clear your mind.

First let me say I am very sad and angry the church and or Christians tormented you. There are churches and Christians that literally do far more harm than good

It was inevitable regardless the church as there are too many things in the Bible I cannot reconcile, and even then there were things leveled too strongly against me that planted the seeds of torment. These seeds were nurtured by the church, and grew and festered into me having very vivid nightmares of hell.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

BilliardsBall said: ↑
Saying there are errors in the Bible IS saying the general teachings may also be invalidated. There is a problem with your stance that the Bible has "lots of good stuff in it, and lots of mistakes." A significant problem.

METIS REPLIED False. For example, I have my Oxford Desk Dictionary near me, and I use it but don't think that it's "divinely inspired" or "inerrant". And even if the scriptures were supposedly both, our ability to interpret certainly is not. Therefore, no matter how you look at it, errors are going to happen.

BilliardsBall said: ↑
You may have trouble interpreting the Bible more than me, an adherent. But saying 2 + 3 = 5 is untrue because some people can't interpret what 2 + 3 equals is a non sequitur.

Are you omniscient, BB? Can you tell us what exactly what was in the original manuscripts, including both what was found in the original Hebrew and Koine Greek texts?

Unless you think you are omniscient, you should be able to admit that translating and interpreting some narratives can be quite difficult, and theologians that are a lot smarter on this than you would well know this. To a child, a tree is simple; but to a botanist, a tree is complex. So, let me recommend you be a "botanist", BB, and not a "child"-- just my recommendation.

I often get doubley violated in debate and discussion. At one end there are the well known atheists giving me grief because I believe in supernatural events etc and on the other end are Christians, usually fundamentalist fire and brimstone types have a go at me because I do not support or teach young earth creation and other things such as the bible containing 'errors'. Or because I claim teach and preach God is not omniscient, at least not in his creation meaning the tangible universe. Without going even farther off on a wordy tangent I will say the Bible is a collection or biblios of 66 books written over a1500 year period.Lots of room for error! However it was written as a guide for two main reasons. One, it was as a manual for living and building a sustainable civilization. Two and the most important, it was a manual for becoming an eternal sentient being, one with God.

; {>

I still think "life work" is too strong of a word. In Christianity, specifically in the Bible, I do not like things like "kill those who don't want me to reign over them" or "women are to be submissive to their husbands" or a blanket mandate of honoring your parents. But yet actively criticizing is something that takes up very, very little of my over all time because I'm usually off doing other/more important things. But, they come up to me to witness, they better bring their A-games because they are going to be debating, not leading a someone to a conversion.

Are you aware that Christianity is Christianity because Jesus God sent him to clarify the writings of the old testament and what is called the old law(s). Just as federal law supersedes most state law the new testament supersedes the OT. Before Jesus God believers had to follow nearly 650 laws. Jesus made it ten commands and reduced the old law and much of OT ritual. Do you see Christians stoning someone for a crime? No. Do you see Christians that refuse to eat bacon? Hellil noooo! Christians respect women. Homosexuals? Jesus did not condemn homosexuality ONE TIME in his ministry.

No, I mentioned many atheists who get very annoyed and irritated by atheists who take it a level of a religious zeal and insist you have to do/believe certain things.

Agreed.

Because the Bible says, among other things, to kill men who lie with men and that their blood is on their hands, I fall into this category. But I fall into this category, as do many others, despite not being atheist.

Not Christians! As I said Jesus did not condemn homosexuality ONE TIME in his ministry. Now Islam has other ideas about gays.

Hamlet was a foolish boy who's lust for vengeance was the death of just about everyone around him. Of course he isn't real, but his existentialist soliloquy was about the only he did that was dumb. Holden Caulfield is an insufferable, whiny, cynical *****. Cruella de Vill wants to skin puppies for their furs. But they are all fake, and though some more evoke stronger emotional responses, very few actually hate them, in the sense of hating someone who stole your million-dollar invention idea. For those who don't believe in your god, or any other particular god(s), it's roughly/approximately the same idea. Criticisms, dislikings, strong words, but hating something that is fictional is getting too much into it, and if it happens you should probably remove yourself from that situation for a moment to clear your mind.

Christianity is different. It garners much more hate and anger than other groups or individuals. Since you are a non believer I am sure you will not agree with me on this next claim....brace yourself! The bible is prophetic that Christians will be hated as time moves along. It also says Christians will be beheaded for their faith! Now tell me how did the author know beheading were going to occur two thousand years in the future?

It was inevitable regardless the church as there are too many things in the Bible I cannot reconcile, and even then there were things leveled too strongly against me that planted the seeds of torment. These seeds were nurtured by the church, and grew and festered into me having very vivid nightmares of hell.

I can understand why you feel so strongly against Christians! I just wish you had been surrounded by the Christians I was blessed with. Most of the old time fire and brimstone preachers are really well meaning. However a few are evil. I am actually angered when I hear of a Gay Hating church blathering how proud they are of their ways. I would love to be a fly on the wall at judgment day when those buffoons receive the wrath of God for harming you, a lamb (and still are. This might anger you but I think your bad dreams and related things show God is still with you, at least in an observation mode. I would ask you not to burn bridges and just ignore him, maybe one day it will be like breaking up with a best friend. I have no vested interest in this, only a desire to see your pain be eliminated. If you don't want anything to do with God well, maybe good people go to heaven anyway, eh?

;{>

 

[Shadow Wolf]

new testament supersedes the OT. Before Jesus God believers had to follow nearly 650 laws.

Three times Jesus said he did not come to do away with the law, and that nothing of it is to be done away with. Three. Damned. Times.

Christians respect women.

Is that why many refuse to let them be priests/pastors, expect them to be housebound and submissive, and hold them responsible for the behaviors of men?

Homosexuals? Jesus did not condemn homosexuality ONE TIME in his ministry.

True. But Paul did. And, according you yourself, NT supersedes OT, but here NT and OT agree.

Christianity is different. It garners much more hate and anger than other groups or individuals.

Bull. They don't face the ridicule atheists do, they don't face the hatred LBGT do, we know it's the Christian god being referred to on money and in the pledge, the Republican party is fighting to make Biblical values and laws state law, and last I knew someone who "looks Christian" hasn't been targeted for violence the way a Sihk "looks Muslim." Say what you want, but here in Indiana it was Christians who were concerned about even just having to work along side those they hold "moral objects" towards (which includes me).
If you think Christians garner more hatred and anger than any other group, go around someplace where people don't know you and tell them you are either atheist or communist or Muslim. Your responses will be very different from when you tell people you are Christian.

It also says Christians will be beheaded for their faith! Now tell me how did the author know beheading were going to occur two thousand years in the future?

For one, beheadings were way more common then than they are now, and things like freedom of religion did not exist but often enough other religions were not tolerated, sometimes under penalty of death. And two, other than Muslim extremists (and Christians and Muslims have shared centuries and centuries of war between each other), there is no one that I am aware of who is beheading Christians just for being Christian.

I just wish you had been surrounded by the Christians I was blessed with.

I've moved on from them and put the spot light on the Bible. Even LBGT affirming churches are using the same Bible that says homosexuals are to be executed, as are those who worship other gods. The focus isn't on his followers with this point, it's on the book that god allegedly had authored.

only a desire to see your pain be eliminated.

My pain was eliminated once I renounced Christ. Where it once felt like I was pushing a large boulder up a hill and heavy weights strapped to my arms, legs, and chest and there were only dark clouds and gloom, my post-Christian, post-god life has challenges, but no boulders or weights and sunny days and beautiful star lit nights. Jesus may have known those around him were suffering and hurting, but mine came to an end once I got away from him. Much like how my overall work demeanor began to improve after I quit a job that was socially and emotionally a very toxic environment. Jesus or that job, I did what anyone who wants/needs to make a positive change in their lives needs to do, and that is change your environment and cease associations with those who were problematic for you and surround yourself with people who provide for positive emotional support. Jesus in a way was worse for me than my absent/drunk father because at least my dad never had anything written or implied in anyway that I am an abomination.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you omniscient, BB? Can you tell us what exactly what was in the original manuscripts, including both what was found in the original Hebrew and Koine Greek texts?

Unless you think you are omniscient, you should be able to admit that translating and interpreting some narratives can be quite difficult, and theologians that are a lot smarter on this than you would well know this. To a child, a tree is simple; but to a botanist, a tree is complex. So, let me recommend you be a "botanist", BB, and not a "child"-- just my recommendation.

Translating some narratives is always difficult for skeptics without the illuminating power of God.

Again, however, you are using rhetoric, for it is reasonable to conclude what is in the original manuscripts (in most cases we have 99% agreement between variant early texts) and since it's not beyond me to look at the original languages.

 

[metis]

Translating some narratives is always difficult for skeptics without the illuminating power of God.

Pretty much every denomination make such claims, and yet we see a great many variations in what they believe. Sometimes even the apostles had differences of opinion, such as James and Paul, so what makes you think that almost 2000 later that yours must supposedly be correct on all counts?

Again, however, you are using rhetoric, for it is reasonable to conclude what is in the original manuscripts (in most cases we have 99% agreement between variant early texts) and since it's not beyond me to look at the original languages.

The local churches during the 2nd and 3rd centuries used varying texts, which is why Constantine in the 4th century ordered the bishops to select the canon you currently use. See: Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

 

[BilliardsBall]

Pretty much every denomination make such claims, and yet we see a great many variations in what they believe. Sometimes even the apostles had differences of opinion, such as James and Paul, so what makes you think that almost 2000 later that yours must supposedly be correct on all counts?

The local churches during the 2nd and 3rd centuries used varying texts, which is why Constantine in the 4th century ordered the bishops to select the canon you currently use. See: Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

But pretty much every denomination has the same essentials, with only several out of many thousands teaching salvation by works and etc.

The ancient councils did not meet to eliminate certain texts as much as to affirm texts. For example, the early church rejected all the same intertestamental apocryphal works that the Jewish people did. Also, I can read the apocrypha for myself--it's not "hidden" from me--and see the many differences with the scriptures for myself.