1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Do non believers EXPECT there must be someone in certain circumstances ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by chinu, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    28,470
    Ratings:
    +9,335
    No (if you're talking about god). We don't expect god to come in to provide them justice. In my opinion, I disagree any person "deserves" justice at all. We learn from the consequences but why eat popcorn and watch them hang from a tree just because they are consequenced for their actions. So, no.

    Someone as in "anyone" (since you didn't provide a who)? No. If I had a attorney, things would probably go smoother. I don't expect one to show up, though. If I don't have evidence then there's nothing much I can do. If anything, that's like saying someone hurt me but I don't have a bruise to show it. So, I wouldn't expect anything from an action I cannot prove happened.
     
  2. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,928
    Ratings:
    +8,344
    Religion:
    Humanist
    Wouldn't the same scenario be true for a believer?

    You need evidence to get a prosecution; no evidence = not much chance of prosecution
     
  3. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Sākṣī
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    10,134
    Ratings:
    +14,144
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta
    Not someone... Something.
     
  4. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    16,856
    Ratings:
    +19,284
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    The simple answer is no.

    We *expect* our criminal justice system to do all it can to achieve justice. But we also know that any system will have failures.

    We strive to promote justice, but don't *expect* that it will happen without our effort. And, unfortunately, there will be cases where it doesn't happen. When that happens and we detect it, we try to modify the system to work better the next time.

    Past that, your question seems very strange. I don't *expect* anyone to make me happy, to give justice, to provide food, or any number of other things. In fact, I *expect* for us fallible humans to botch the job frequently, but still to try.

    And if we fail, there is no further court of appeal.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    16,856
    Ratings:
    +19,284
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    No. Accidents happen. We try our best to deal with the consequences and move on.
     
  6. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,147
    Ratings:
    +2,339
    Yes: the legal system.
    Civilization attempts to provide a legal system. The legal system attempts to provide justice. Sometimes they fail in their efforts.

    However, concept of a “God” has never been seen to provide either, :confused: except for rare instances of luck (karma). But even then, it is usually due ro the criminal’s sheer stupidity and/or his flouting of what it means to be civilized.
     
  7. chinu

    chinu Passenger

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,372
    Ratings:
    +1,154
    :) Can non believers go to any extent to prove the non existence of God ?
     
  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    16,856
    Ratings:
    +19,284
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Huh? I answered your question. I don't *expect* justice. I *work* for it. As you pointed out, the question of the existence of a deity is irrelevant to this.

    In that regard, the burden of proof is on the one making the existence claim, not those unconvinced of that existence.

    In other words, it is the role of the believers to prove the existence, not of the unbelievers to prove non-existence.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. chinu

    chinu Passenger

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,372
    Ratings:
    +1,154
    I don't know what made me to point that out. I am myself so confused why I did that.

    Can you guess what wrong happened with me ? :)
     
  10. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    16,856
    Ratings:
    +19,284
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    It's not my job. Go see a professional if you are really concerned.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. chinu

    chinu Passenger

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    11,372
    Ratings:
    +1,154
    You really made me worried now.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    15,695
    Ratings:
    +7,331
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    No, selfish logic can cut both ways to justify the existence and non-existence of God(s)
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  13. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    5,468
    Ratings:
    +3,586
    Religion:
    ?
    For me, personally, not at all. The only "justice" of the kind you're speaking of that I would expect them to come up against (and specifically in the situation where the person got away with it and the system "failed" me) is a sort of take on "karma" - but only in the sense that, at some point, their misdeeds and willingness to engage in misdeeds and crimes will get them caught, or they will mess with someone who is able to get the better of them in the situation - maybe someone who has a gun and a non-peaceful disposition who shoots them dead on the spot, or beats the crap out of them, etc. Live by the sword, die by the sword, and all that. But that is really the only sort of vague "expectation" I might have given the scenario you set forth in the OP.
     
    #73 A Vestigial Mote, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  14. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    9,511
    Ratings:
    +5,238
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Karma works, at least in the place where I live, in 1 particular case;)

    There is a narcissistic woman who terrorizes the neighborhood. Every ca. 10 years they beat the crap out of her, because police does nothing (sometimes Law protects the villain too much). Last time the police said something like "you handle it yourself, we've had it with this woman", when the neighbors complained, they did not wait long for this "police gift". I just saw Charles Bronson film...police told him the same;), seems to work sometimes.
     
  15. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    16,069
    Ratings:
    +6,872
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    No.
     
  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    18,145
    Ratings:
    +5,931
    Religion:
    deist
    No chinu..... That is a wicked action.
     
  17. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2020
    Messages:
    2,037
    Ratings:
    +921
    Religion:
    UNdecided [they all appear to be equally true]
    a function of religion seems to be to produce brother's keepers
    self-appointed by a sense of duty and obligation [guilt]
    to play hall monitor in the school of life
    to curry favor with the principal....curious effect.
     
  18. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,840
    Ratings:
    +4,734
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Of course not.

    do believers? If yes, why do you pay taxes for police, a judicial system and stuff like that? It must be totally superflous, from your point of view.

    ciao

    - viole
     
  19. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    25,164
    Ratings:
    +16,311
    Religion:
    None
    Reading your posts, I get the impression that what you mean by "justice" is vengeance. I consider that an instinctive throw back to our primitive past. I think rehabilitation and restoration are far better forms of "justice".

    Suppose your scenario happened. And the judge could both fix B(bring them back) and also fix C(explain why murder is a bad thing, in a way that truly changes them permanently). Wouldn't that be better than just murdering C, to give A vengeance? I think it would.

    Humans are pitifully limited, we can't do any of those things. Almighty God, however, can do them. In fact, God could have prevented all of this from happening in the first place by Creating better humans.

    There is no God who cares that much. That's a demonstrable fact. Whether there's any God at all remains a question.
    Tom
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,609
    Ratings:
    +3,816
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Your question seems to assume that justice is a single thing, so that a just outcome is always possible.

    Sure, winners are grinners most of the time, but it's not all that rare for both sides to be furious at the outcome. In divorce courts, it happens all the time, but even in commerce neither side may get what it wanted.

    And no, I don't think the world contains any more justice than we humans bring to it. Still, and however imperfectly, that's a lot lot better than nothing.
     
Loading...