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Featured Do non believers EXPECT there must be someone in certain circumstances ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by chinu, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    I said what I thought,[about that] what's the question then?
     
  2. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    What a revealing response. It indicates that what you believe is in based solely on what you WANT to believe. If you WANT someone who did you an injustice who escaped it in the legal system to be punished then you simply decided that there MUST be a god being who will eventually dispense the justice you think they deserve. And that anyone who hasn't deluded themselves into believing there's a god being to dispense justice must somehow not have a problem with injustice.
     
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  3. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    No. Why on earth would you think there is a god that will provide justice? Is this a god that allows children to die of cancers before having a life of their own? Is this a god with ultimate power who allows humans to commit atrocities. Is this the god that failed to stop Christians murdering in gods name? Is this the god that knows all and what will happen thus eliminating the concept of free will? What justice is this?
     
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  4. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    Actually this is my question NOT yours.

    Okay, I just take out the word God from my question.

    It becomes.. Do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ? (Or please read the OP I have edited)

    Now, do you care to answer please ?
     
  5. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    Okay, then let me ask this way.

    Do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?
     
  6. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Can't speak for all non-believers, but for myself I would answer as follows;

    There is nothing on this earth that guarantees just or fair outcomes, safety, respect, food, shelter, or anything else.
    A coherent and effective community is one which can result in a reasonable expectation of these things for all it's members.
    Human societies obviously commonly fall short of this ideal, but they can move life from the natural absence of concepts like justice, to one in which there is at least a reasonable HOPE of such things occurring.

    That's it. Nothing more than that. As an atheist I realise that I'm relying on other people just as flawed as I am to give any practical meaning to words like 'justice' and 'egalitarianism'. And I need to make sure that they can rely on me for the same. It's a fragile social contract. And an important one.
     
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  7. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    expectations are presumptions of children
    hope, is a whole other matter.
     
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Life is chance, random, uncertain, probable. One might be mugged and there might not be any witnesses or saviors. Just wipe your face and carry on.

    Or if it hurt badly, then get a knife, a club, a baseball, hockey, cricket bat or pistol and search for that person to complete justice.
     
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  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    What does the sparrow think as it is snatched by a hawk?
    What does the child think as it is knocked down by the speeding car?
    I wonder what the victims of Pol Pot's government thought?
    Life is a lottery...... and good fortune (where I live) is a Lady ...... Lady Luck. :)
     
  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Reminded me of the old Kipling quote...

    If you can meet success and failure and treat them both as impostors, then you are a balanced man, my son.
     
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  11. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    WOW... you could have made that a whole lot clearer from the very beginning instead of asking me, since I don't expect a god I don't believe in to do anything, if I'm 'relax' with injustice. Instead simply clarify your confusing question.

    Now that you have, it's easy to answer. As human beings we've created justice systems that are supposed to be designed to dispense genuine justice. If the system is designed properly then there should be an expectation of justice... however properly designing such a system clearly isn't easy, because injustices certainly do occur that the justice system doesn't rectify. Thus, in the imperfect world in which we live I have HOPE that justice will prevail, but certainly not an expectation.

    Actually this is my question NOT yours.

    We've been over this before, chinu. When you ask a question in an open forum like this you need to expect that people are going to ask you questions in return. It's not a one way street. You can't get miffed when they do, especially when so many of your questions are rather vague or poorly worded.
     
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  12. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    But, still you didn't tell why you take that as injustice, why NOT take as accident ?
     
  13. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    That doesn't have anything to do with the OP question.

    Let me ask this way.. Do non-believers EXPECT that there must be someone to provide them justice ?

    What is your answer now ?
     
    #33 chinu, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  14. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    No, I don’t expect a guarantee of justice.
    Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.
    This is why developing patience is a virtue.
    I think it is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect justice in all cases.

    I remember the lama talking about the ability to lose. He said it is a skill overlooked and disparaged in the west.
    That teaching has come back to me many times in many different forms. It cast light on how the grasping ego always wants to win.

    But if you’re playing football with a seven year old, it’s good to let them get a few wins. Maybe even help them. And there are lots of other examples.

    This is my favourite song about the subject ...

     
  15. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    answer to specious question....no
    why assume expectations in those depicted as having none?
     
  16. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Scenario: somebody did something very very wrong with you without any reason. You being the victim went to the court for justice, but, failed to provide any solid evidence/proofs to court to punish that accused. Person exonerated from the court.

    In the scenario YOU gave YOU said somebody did something very very wrong... or committed an injustice. So the reason I took it that an injustice was done and not just an accident occurred is because that's the way YOU laid out the scenario. Are you now saying that it's possible this somebody actually didn't do something very very wrong without any reason, but it was actually just an accident?

    Maybe you need to ask your question again, but be clear this time. Why do I take WHAT as injustice, and not just an accident?
     
  17. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    Sparrow cannot provide witness on "RF". Perhaps, want justice.
    Speeding car knocked the child. Is an accident.
    Victims of Pol Pots's government. I really don't know what is the issue. What is the issue ?
     
  18. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    No.Nor do believers either.
     
  19. chinu

    chinu Veteran Member

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    This question is for non-believers.
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    ........... to walk with kings, nor yet lose the common touch...... :)
     
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