Do Muslims practice their own form of idol worship?

[LuisDantas]

Do Muslims pay undue homage and reverence to Muhammed, akin to worship?

They expect _everyone_ to refrain from even attempting to portray Muhammad, presumably out of respect.

Even non-Muslims.

Whether that suggests undue homage and reverence, akin to worship is a judgment call, since the ideas are so subjective. I sure think it does.

 

[MD]

Apparently this is a belief specific to Sunni Muslims. You'll have to take it up with them to have them explain their belief.

But again, have you ever heard a Muslim say, "O Qur'an please save me from the kuffar on RF!"

No it's a belief apparent to almost all Muslim sects. The only people who don't believe this are certain sufi sects. Shi'as and even Ahmadis believe that the Quran is eternal.

No a Muslim does not say 'O Quran save me from the kuffar', but they routinely will quote from it as a guide for everything in life, which is meant to last forever.

That's not called ascribing divinity to it. They don't pray to the Kaaba, they pray towards it. They aren't asking the Kaaba to help them, they have a belief that their prayers to G-d are more effective there or whatever it is.

It's not a strong idol in the classical sense but there is definitely a connection between the Kaaba and Allah. Otherwise they would pray in any direction.

I don't know. I guess that's going to be a problem you're going to have to work out. In other languages these words are not synonymous.

While the label of idolatry might be subjective, what Muslims practice definitely falls under some degree of idolatry given the English definition of the word.

 

[MD]

The enemies of Islam might think this is idolworship.
But muslims knows the black stone is a creation, it cannot benefit us and neither harm us.
It cannot give us children, etc etc

When Umar(the Crusher of Crusaders and Persian pagans),who is hated much by the Shia Polytheists, kissed the black stone he said: i know this is just a stone, it cannot benefit me and nor harm me. Had i not seen the prophet pbuh kiss the stone, i would have never kissed it!

It is for the enemy of islam to proof that we worship the stone.

By proof it means we call upon the stone. We make supplications in the name of the stone. We believe it has powers. All these proofs must come from the enemy of islam.


Its laughable that an hindu who worships so many idols and worships even the faeces of cows wants to accuse us of idolworship.
If the black stone is idolworship because we use that as direction(qiblah) of prayers then so too the Jews fall upon shirk(polytheism) for using the wall as direction of prayers.

You know I grew up around a lot of guys like you. Everytime I debate some liberal Muslim apologist, people like you come and really damage the liberals mind. I enjoy your posts for this very reason, since you bring the true viewpoints to the table instead of what the PC folks like to think.You show the liberals that they are fighting for fundamentalism.

You're like the RF Anjem Choudary.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

You know I grew up around a lot of guys like you. Everytime I debate with some liberal Muslim apologist, people like you come and really damage the liberals mind. I enjoy your posts for this very reason, since you bring the true viewpoints to the table instead of what the PC folks like to think.You show the liberals that they are fighting for fundamentalism.

You're like the RF Anjem Choudary.

Choudary supports killing of civilians

I deem that to be sin and a evil crime


However i believe muslims have right to resist themselves against invaders and zionists. And to fight against them until they cease hostilities.


I dont like kumbaya hibbie kind of muslims. They are naive!

It is justified to fight hard against the enemies of islam in words(in west by words, i dont support military attacks in west) or in deeds( invaders in afghanistan, iraq, palestine and syria).



Ps i said palestine because i dont recognize zionist racist state

 

[MD]

Choudary supports killing of civilians

I deem that to be sin and a evil crime


However i believe muslims have right to resist themselves against invaders and zionists. And to fight against them until they cease hostilities.


I dont like kumbaya hibbie kind of muslims. They are naive!

Do you think that Muslims who practice shirk should be punished?
What is the punishment in this case?
Why do you hate Zionists? How are they any different from Muslims who want a global Ummah?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Do you think that Muslims who practice shirk should be punished?
What is the punishment in this case?
Why do you hate Zionists? How are they any different from Muslims who want a global Ummah?

They should be excused and reminded everytime the dangers of shirk.
They might do it out of incorrect interpretation or ignorance.

 

[MD]

They should be excused and reminded everytime the dangers of shirk.
They might do it out of incorrect interpretation or ignorance.

What if they persist in it, as you believe the Persian rafidahs have?
What about murtads?

 

[Sakeenah]

I have always wondered if Muslims also practice a lighter form of idol worship due to the extreme reverence they place on the Quran and the Kaaba. I won't get into how Shia's ask Ali for help or the Sufis who pray to saints, I will simply focus on mainstream Islam at the moment.

Why circle a black rock in the middle of a desert,pray towards it, and then claim one is not associating some divinity to this rock? Especially if the rock was a pagan temple before it became Islam's holiest symbol.

The Quran is simply a book with words, even if those words are from God as Muslims believe, why practice such extreme forms of reverence? Wouldn't God's words be available everywhere, in everything? Wouldn't all aspects of creation have his presence? Why argue, fight and even kill those who insult this book?

What do you think?

Hi MD,

Praying towards the kabah has
has nothing to do with the structure of the Kabah but it has to do with its location. If it would be destroyed, we would still pray in that direction, not to that structure. We don't pray to the kabah we pray towards the kabah, we only pray to Allah. The reason why we do that is because we believe God commanded us to pray towards that direction.

As muslims we believe the Quran is the revelation and message revealed to the prophet muhammad (peace be upon him), the Quran can be recited and written down. When it's written down we call it mushaf and that's what you are referring to.Muslims don't get upset because a book is being insulted but because it's the words of God.
Getting upset,angry is a human reaction when someone insults something you love but violence isn't a solution. The Quran tells muslims not to be provoked by those who seem to attack or insult stating very clearly “let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice.

"And the servants of the Most Merciful are those walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them(harshly),they say(words of) peace."

 

[Kirran]

Hi MD,

Praying towards the kabah has
has nothing to do with the structure of the Kabah but it has to do with its location. If it would be destroyed, we would still pray in that direction, not to that structure. We don't pray to the kabah we pray towards the kabah, we only pray to Allah. The reason why we do that is because we believe God commanded us to pray towards that direction.

As muslims we believe the Quran is the revelation and message revealed to the prophet muhammad (peace be upon him), the Quran can be recited and written down. When it's written down we call it mushaf and that's what you are referring to.Muslims don't get upset because a book is being insulted but because it's the words of God.
Getting upset,angry is a human reaction when someone insults something you love but violence isn't a solution. The Quran tells muslims not to be provoked by those who seem to attack or insult stating very clearly “let not a people’s enmity incite you to act otherwise than with justice.

"And the servants of the Most Merciful are those walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them(harshly),they say(words of) peace."

If somebody were to move the Kaaba, would you pray towards the old site or to the new site?

This is of course incredibly hypothetical.

Even more than when I once asked someone towards what direction a Muslim would pray if they were on Mars!

 

[zahra67]

hi.
we honor it and respect it for the sake of God and his command, not due to itself.
its sign of God and we respect it and perform haj for divine sake.
haj is one of muslims practices.

Why do you bow to it? Why is it the qibla? Why circle it during hajj/umrah? How is that not shirk?

 

[zahra67]

see these verses from the holy Quran.

verses 142 until 150 of chapter 2
say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom
He likes to the right path.
And thus We have made you a medium [just] nation that you may be the
bearers of witness to the people and [that] the Messenger may be a bearer of
witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah
but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns
back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has
guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most
surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.
Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn
you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred
Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been
given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah
is not at all heedless of what they do.
And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they
would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither
are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires
after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among
the unjust.
Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their
sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know [it].
The truth is from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the doubters.
And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to
[do] good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely
Allah has power over all things.
And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred
Mosque; and surely it is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all
heedless of what you do.
And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred
Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall
have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not
fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may
walk on the right course.
also verses 96 and 97 of chapter 3
Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed
and a guidance for the nations.
In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it
shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake
of Allah, [upon] every one who is able to undertake the journey to it; and
whoever disbelieves, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above any need of the
worlds.

Why do you bow to it? Why is it the qibla? Why circle it during hajj/umrah? How is that not shirk?

 

[Ya Ali]

Question 40: What is the reason for Hajj, and what is its purpose?

Answer: In short, Hajj in Islam is the attendance at a specific time of the year, in a specific place which is the sacred house of Allah or the Kaaba. So first we must know the attribute of the time and place.

As for the place which is the Kaaba, it is but the manifestation and appearance of the Constructed House, which is the manifestation and appearance of al-Thirah, and al-Thirah is in the sixth sky which is the highest ideal heavenly sky, and following it comes the seventh sky which is the encompassing heaven unlike the others. And Al-Thirah, was only created after the response of the angels to Allah SWT when He told them of the creation of Adam PBUH, so the angels circumambulated around it so that Allah would forgive them and accept their repentance following their offense and objection upon Him SWT. (1)

And al-Thirah also manifested in the five skies lower than the sixth sky, so in each sky there was a house suitable for its status for the angels of that sky to circumambulate around, so that Allah swt would forgive them and accept their repentance, so in the fourth sky there was The Constructed House (2), and this house manifested and appeared on the earth, so it was the Sacred House of Allah or the Kaaba. Thus when Adam PBUH descended to earth, he circumambulated around it so Allah forgave him and raised his rank and status by His Favor and Generosity SWT.

As for the time: It is Thul-Hujjah, and the most important feature of this month is that it is the month in which Imam al-Mahdi PBUH emerges in Mecca and sends the Pure Soul to the people of Mecca and they kill him between the Corner and the Station, so he pbuh rises after that on the tenth of Muharram. Therefore, the house of Allah was placed in the skies for the angels to circumambulate around it and ask for forgiveness after their objection to the Proof of Allah Adam PBUH. And it was placed on the earth for Adam to circumambulate around it after his transgression over the tree of the knowledge of the progeny of Muhammad or the tree of the allegiance.
(and We did not find him to be of intense ability) (3) Meaning to tolerate the allegiance to the progeny of Muhammad, and they are the Proof of Allah upon Adam pbuh, so the circumambulation around the house is but to acknowledge the proof of Allah upon the creation by the allegiance, and obeying his commands and obeying him.

So the reason for Hajj is to ask forgiveness for the shortcoming regarding the right of the Proof upon the creation PBUH in every era, and in our era he is Imam al-Mahdi PBUH. And it has been narrated from them pbut in the meaning of "Allah made Hajj only for the people to present their allegiance to us". (4)

As for the purpose of Hajj, it is the gathering in this place and and in this time of every year in anticipation of the rise of the Awaiting Reformer al-Mahdi PBUH to perform Jihad between his hands, as he is the possessor of the Athan (5) in our era, Allah SWT said in the Quran, ‘They come to you O My proof upon My creation, not to Me.’ The Almighty said,
"And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass -" (6)
"Then let them end their untidiness and fulfill their vows and circumambulate around the House of Redemption." (7)
And ending the untidiness means cleansing and purification, and by the appearances, it is cutting the nails and shaving the head, as is according to the pulp and the truth, what is meant by it is meeting Imam al-Hujja PBUH, and shaving the head represents detachment from all ideas and submission to the Proof pbuh and obedience to his commands.

And it was only called the House of Redemption because whoever circumambulates it is redeemed from the guilt of his shortcoming with Imam al-Mahdi PBUH, the Proof upon the creation, "That And whoever glorifies the sanctities of Allah, it is best for him" (8), "That [is so]. And whoever glorifies the rites of Allah, indeed, it is from the piety of the hearts." (9). As the sanctities of Allah and the rites of Allah are the proofs of Allah SWT upon the creation.

- Ahmed Al-Hasan, the Successor and Messenger of Imam Al Mahdi PBUH.

--------------------------------------

1- Narrated from Abi Abdullah PBUH that he said " … As for the commencement of this house, Allah Almighty said to the angels: "Verily, I am making a viceroy (Khalifa) on earth" and the angels replied to Allah Almighty and said: "Will you place therein who shall make mischief in it and shed blood" So He left them and they saw that this was from His indignation [should we say anger? or displeasure?] and sought refuge to His throne, He then ordered one of the angels to make for Him a house in the sixth sky to be called Al-Thirah confronted with His throne, so He rendered it for the people of the sky to which seventy thousand of the angels circumambulate around it [same: should we say tawaf?] with no return and ask for forgiveness. Then when Adam descended to the sky of the Dunya, He ordered him to mend this house confronted with that, so He rendered it for Adam and his progeny just as it was mended for the people of the skies" Al-Kafi: Volume4 Page187, The chapter of the commencement of the house and Tawaf

2- Narrated from Abi Hamza Al-Thamali from Ali the son of Al-Hussain pbuh he said "I said to my father: why did Tawaaf become seven rounds? He said: Because Allah The blessed Almighty said to the angels "Verily, I am making a viceroy (Khalifa) on earth" and the angels replied to Allah Almighty and said: "Will you place therein who shall make mischief in it and shed blood", Allah said "I know what you do not know" and he never used to obscure them from his light, but he did for seven thousand years, so they sought refuged to the throne for seven thousand years, for Allah was merciful on them and accepted their repentance and made Al-Bayt Al-Mammor in the fourth sky for them and made it a reference and a safe house, and placed the sacred house beneath Al-Bayt Al-Mammor and made it a reference for the people and a safe house, so Tawaf became seven rounds as an obligation to all the slaves, a round for every thousand years" The legislation of Islam: Volume2 Page406-407 Chapter143 Hadeeth1

3- Quran 20:115

4- Al-Kafi Volume1 Page392 Chapter "The obligation upon the people following their rituals is to approach the Imam and ask him about the knowledge of their religion and present them with their welaya and love" Hadeeth 1, 2, and 3].

5- Al-Athan: Proclamation to prayer- Trans.

6- Quran 22:27
7- Quran 22:29
8- Quran 22:30
9- Quran 22:32