Do Muslims practice their own form of idol worship?

[MD]

It's not a strawman. As a said, pretty much just about every criticism of Islam and the Quran applies to Christians and the Bible. I even provided you with evidence that Christians too elevate their book, and even a flag, to the point of idolatry.

I'm not talking about Christianity. I haven't advanced an argument about or against christianity, thus your post is a strawman. Muslims themselves call Christians polytheists due to the trinity.

I understand within your cultural context Christianity is a problem. But the world isn't Indiana. And my cultural context is different.

 

[Aštra’el]

You bow everyday, 5 times a day to it. That is not worship? Even if not worship, it is a symbol. That symbol is supposed to be a connection to Allah for some reason.

It appears the Kaaba serves as a sacred nexus and Axis Mundi to Islam.

 

[MD]

It appears the Kaaba serves as a sacred nexus and Axis Mundi to Islam.

Maybe, still doesn't change that is an idol

 

[Aštra’el]

Maybe, still doesn't change that is an idol

So Muslims venerate their holiest site and their holiest book, as people of other religions often do. Though I might personally consider that esteemed veneration to be worship, they obviously regard "worship" as something even more deeper and intimate than their veneration for the Kaaba and the Quran... something reserved only for God. And although you might consider the Kaaba to be an idol... Muslims (and other Abrahamic religions) obviously regard "idols" as objects worshipped as gods... which the Kaaba is not.

 

[MD]

So Muslims venerate their holiest site and their holiest book. Though I might personally consider that esteemed veneration to be worship, they obviously regard "worship" as something even more deeper and intimate than their veneration for the Kaaba and the Quran, something reserved only for God. And although you might consider the Kaaba to be an idol... Muslims (and other Abrahamic religions) obviously regard "idols" as objects worshipped as gods... which the Kaaba is not.

Their holiest site was a pagan temple, which is one of the gravest sins in their faith. I doubt bowing to a rock, 5 times a day, everyday, is simply an act of reverence. It is an act of worship, which is showing adoration for a deity. If the Kaaba is not God, it is definitely associated to God. It is a symbol attached to Allah, a partner to Allah, which is shirk.

Muslims will obviously not regard the Kaaba as an idol, it still doesn't change the fact that they prostate to a rock/ex pagan temple their whole lives. It may not be full idolatry but it is definitely a weaker form of it.

 

[Aštra’el]

Their holiest site was a pagan temple, which is one of the gravest sins in their faith.

Now it is not. I do wish I could have seen and experienced the site during its pre-monotheism phase.

I doubt bowing to a rock, 5 times a day, everyday, is simply an act of reverence. It is an act of worship...If the Kaaba is not God, it is definitely associated to God. It is a symbol attached to Allah

Of course I perceive it as worship, and I find nothing terrible about that. But they define "worship" differently and to them, the Kaaba is part of how they worship God/ Allah. They do not revere the rock as a god, it is not meant to depict a god. It is a nexus for their religion, it connects all Muslims in their worship of Allah, and as an Axis Mundi is a connection between Heaven and Earth. All that prayer and veneration from every Muslim on earth all focused towards a single point in praise of Allah. Imagine beams of light during every prayer emanating from the hearts and minds of over a billion Muslims towards the Kaaba and merging together at that single point (the Kaaba), focused into one constantly ignited magnificent pillar of holy light, ascending straight up into the Heavens beyond the cosmos. How is that not awesome???

 

[Augustus]

The Quran is simply a book with words, even if those words are from God as Muslims believe, why practice such extreme forms of reverence? Wouldn't God's words be available everywhere, in everything? Wouldn't all aspects of creation have his presence? Why argue, fight and even kill those who insult this book?

What do you think?

This is something that was debated among early Muslims. Mutazelites when arguing that the Quran was created claimed that the it was shirk to see it as eternal and thus on a par with God.

Why circle a black rock in the middle of a desert,pray towards it, and then claim one is not associating some divinity to this rock? Especially if the rock was a pagan temple before it became Islam's holiest symbol.

"Umar looked towards the black stone at Mecca and said 'By Allah, I know that thou art only a stone, and canst grant no benefit, canst do no harm. If I had not known that the Prophet kissed thee, I would not have done so, but on account of that, I do it.'" - Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari Mishkat III, pg 604.

Imo this hadith shows that people were having the same discussions back then. At least if you believe that many hadith were invented to explain theological issues and solve disputes.

Another interesting hadith (that seems to contradict the previous one a little bit):

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”
Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944


In general though, nothing that is orthodox can be idolatry. And these aren't considered idolatry because those who did consider them idolatry lost the argument.

 

[smile]

Kaaba is a direction, and it is a holy place, we worship Allah and he obliged us to face to the Kaaba when praying to him, secrets and meanings and wisdom behind that may be many.One is the unity of Islam.Look at this video speaking about the position of Kaaba in the heart of the earth in the golden ratio

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think that we first need to establish that idol worship is an actual thing as opposed to a label projected onto other people's and cultures that is nothing more than a needlessly judgmental misunderstanding.

It's both. The problem is some groups like Christians & Muslims are ridiculously liberal with using the term in a derogatory context - usually against other religions. It's especially hypocritical for these two groups because both can trace their current practise and institutions from Pagan ones - for example the Pope holds a Pagan office: the Pontifex Maximus and currently has control over the Pantheon in Rome; originally a Pagan temple. Same goes for Islam - the Kaaba was originally a Pagan temple dedicated to the Old Gods of Mecca. The fact that Muslims ritually circle and try to kiss the Black Stone in the Kaaba while decrying similar ritual behaviour in other faiths should be called out for what it is, don't you think?

Be that as it may (among whatever pagan spiritual-religious groups might in some way perform this act in their culture), this practice is not exclusively pagan, nor are the concepts of group worship, prayer, ritual, holy rites, sacred sites, etc...

It would appear that many who criticize Islam's reverence and behavior towards the Kaaba do not understand the concept of axis mundi.

While it's true that the practise is not exclusively Pagan, the practise does exist in non-Abrahamic faiths. For claiming to be true, perfect & complete faith distinct from false, pagan beliefs, Islam has certainly incorporated much of their 'false' ways into its own structure.

The concept of axis mundi is yet another that originates in the Old Ways. I'm not sure if Islam actually preaches this concept though so we'll leave it to the side for now.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Do Muslims pay undue homage and reverence to Muhammed, akin to worship?

 

[Quintessence]

It's both. The problem is some groups like Christians & Muslims are ridiculously liberal with using the term in a derogatory context - usually against other religions. It's especially hypocritical for these two groups because both can trace their current practise and institutions from Pagan ones - for example the Pope holds a Pagan office: the Pontifex Maximus and currently has control over the Pantheon in Rome; originally a Pagan temple. Same goes for Islam - the Kaaba was originally a Pagan temple dedicated to the Old Gods of Mecca. The fact that Muslims ritually circle and try to kiss the Black Stone in the Kaaba while decrying similar ritual behaviour in other faiths should be called out for what it is, don't you think?

I'd strongly prefer it if we discarded derogatory terms like "idolatry" instead. Rather than do a tit-for-tat by slamming certain Islamic practices as "idolatry," encourage religious pluralism and dispel the misconceptions about other religions. As far as I'm aware, nobody labels themselves as an "idolater" - this is always a label stuck on a person by an outsider as a snarl word. Usage of that term should just stop, as it doesn't create productive dialogues or facilitate inter-religious understanding. If you want to call the behavior hypocrisy, fine - but I want that word "idolatry" struck out.

 

[MD]

Kaaba is a direction, and it is a holy place, we worship Allah and he obliged us to face to the Kaaba when praying to him, secrets and meanings and wisdom behind that may be many.One is the unity of Islam.Look at this video speaking about the position of Kaaba in the heart of the earth in the golden ratio

You bow to a rock in a desert, circle it during hajj/umrah and kiss it. How is that not associating any symbols or structures to Allah?

 

[Aštra’el]

The problem is some groups like Christians & Muslims are ridiculously liberal with using the term in a derogatory context - usually against other religions. It's especially hypocritical for these two groups because both can trace their current practise and institutions from Pagan ones - for example the Pope holds a Pagan office: the Pontifex Maximus and currently has control over the Pantheon in Rome; originally a Pagan temple. Same goes for Islam - the Kaaba was originally a Pagan temple dedicated to the Old Gods of Mecca. The fact that Muslims ritually circle and try to kiss the Black Stone in the Kaaba while decrying similar ritual behaviour in other faiths should be called out for what it is, don't you think?

Various ancient temples were used to strengthen the relationship between Man and God(s), and to strengthen a culture's spiritual-religious system. Those of the Abrahamic religions who now use these temples to worship the Abrahamic God are embracing these temples for exactly the purpose they were meant for.

While it's true that the practise is not exclusively Pagan, the practise does exist in non-Abrahamic faiths. For claiming to be true, perfect & complete faith distinct from false, pagan beliefs, Islam has certainly incorporated much of their 'false' ways into its own structure.

How exactly are you defining "pagan" in this context, and what is so terrible about people of Abrahamic religions including spiritual-religious practices or places of worship that have also been used by pagans?

Do these practices not strengthen their spiritual-religious system, and in their eyes strengthen their connection to God(s)?

 

[MD]

Now it is not. I do wish I could have seen and experienced the site during its pre-monotheism phase.



Of course I perceive it as worship, and I find nothing terrible about that. But they define "worship" differently and to them, the Kaaba is part of how they worship God/ Allah. They do not revere the rock as a god, it is not meant to depict a god. It is a nexus for their religion, it connects all Muslims in their worship of Allah, and as an Axis Mundi is a connection between Heaven and Earth. All that prayer and veneration from every Muslim on earth all focused towards a single point in praise of Allah. Imagine beams of light during every prayer emanating from the hearts and minds of over a billion Muslims towards the Kaaba and merging together at that single point (the Kaaba), focused into one constantly ignited magnificent pillar of holy light, ascending straight up into the Heavens beyond the cosmos. How is that not awesome???

According to dictionary.com, one of the definitions of idol is
'any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion'

Thus based on this definition idols are plenty in Islam, from the Kaaba, the Quran and their prophet.

Another definition of idol is
'an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed'

While the Kaaba does not represent Allah, religious worship is addressed to it. Based on these two definitions, it seems rather likely that the Kaaba is an idol.

 

[Aštra’el]

According to dictionary.com, one of the definitions of idol is
'any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion'

Thus based on this definition idols are plenty in Islam, from the Kaaba, the Quran and their prophet.

Another definition of idol is
'an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed'

While the Kaaba does not represent Allah, religious worship is addressed to it. Based on these two definitions, it seems rather likely that the Kaaba is an idol.

Yes, another definition is:

Idol
-a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered

In which case, everything from loved ones to nature to one's homeland to one's favorite food can be considered "idols".


What you and many others do not appear to understand (or refuse to accept) is that Abrahamic religions' use of the words "idol" or "worship" carries a specific, particular meaning that is somewhat different than how others tend to understand it. If you are going to criticize their use of these words, you should at least familiarize yourself with what meaning and context it holds with them.

To them, an "idol" is an object worshipped as a God. When they say "do not worship idols", they are saying, do not take an object and claim it is a god, and worship it as a god.

To them, worship is the highest form of veneration, even deeper than what Muslims feel towards Mohammad, the Kaaba, and the Quran. It is the deepest kind of veneration reserved only for God.

 

[MD]

Yes, another definition is:

Idol
-a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered

In which case, everything from loved ones to nature to one's homeland to one's favorite food can be considered "idols".


What you and many others do not appear to understand (or refuse to accept) is that Abrahamic religions' use of the words "idol" or "worship" is somewhat different than the way others understand it. If you are going to criticize their use of these words, you should at least familiarize yourself with what meaning and context it holds with them.

To them, an "idol" is an object worshipped as a God. When they say "do not worship idols", they are saying, do not take an object and claim it is a god, and worship it as a god.

To them, worship is the highest form of veneration, even deeper than what Muslims feel towards Mohammad, the Kaaba, and the Quran. It is the deepest kind of veneration reserved only for God.

Yes those are idols as well.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the historical context as well before commenting. Throughout Islamic history, many non Muslim religious symbols that were associated with God, or worship, were destroyed. If you knew anything about the history of the religion you would know this. Actually even if you watched the news you would know this, as what happened in Palmyra and Afghanistan in the last few years.

To destroy artifacts and symbols of other religions that are defined as idols, while preserving your own idolatry under the guise of 'veneration' and 'nexus worship' is a deep form of hypocrisy.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I'd strongly prefer it if we discarded derogatory terms like "idolatry" instead. Rather than do a tit-for-tat by slamming certain Islamic practices as "idolatry," encourage religious pluralism and dispel the misconceptions about other religions. As far as I'm aware, nobody labels themselves as an "idolater" - this is always a label stuck on a person by an outsider as a snarl word. Usage of that term should just stop, as it doesn't create productive dialogues or facilitate inter-religious understanding. If you want to call the behavior hypocrisy, fine - but I want that word "idolatry" struck out.

I understand why you feel this way and I sympathise but perhaps your time & energy would be better spent aiming this at people who gave the term its derogatory contexts in the first place because the term isn't simply going to vanish because you don't like it. Until those who apply this term against other faiths grow up enough to realise how harmful it is and learn to stop, it should be applied against their own where applicable with equal force. It's vitally important that we expose the hypocrisy of religious systems which claim to be superior than those they disparage while simultaneously indulging those same 'inferior' practises like idol worship in this case - especially when those religions claim to be complete, morally perfect etc and other faiths are less so or not at all. Shirk (the association/worship of things with/other than Allah) is the greatest sin in Islam and ritually circling & kissing the Black Stone in the Kaaba is a form of worship aimed at something that is not Allah. This isn't just hypocrisy - it's two-faced self-righteousness of the highest order.

How exactly are you defining "pagan" in this context,

Big 'P' = nature-based religions, small 'p' = Non-Abrahamic though I guess the two do overlap to an extent.

and what is so terrible about people of Abrahamic religions including spiritual-religious practices or places of worship that have also been used by pagans?

It's utterly two-faced & hypocritical to engage in practises in worship of your god while condemning others for doing the same thing in honour of theirs'.

Do these practices not strengthen their spiritual-religious system, and in their eyes strengthen their connection to God(s)?

Probably. The problem I find is people who judge other belief systems as unworthy for engaging in practises that their own belief system endorses. Worship of the Kaaba is one such case.

I have no doubt the OP and those who agree with him will eventually be called Islamophobic or Islamizophrenic or whatever moronic, meaningless word Islam's defenders are trotting out now to silence criticism or discussion they don't like.

 

[Aštra’el]

Yes those are idols as well.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the historical context as well before commenting. Throughout Islamic history, many non Muslim religious symbols that were associated with God, or worship, were destroyed. If you knew anything about the history of the religion you would know this. Actually even if you watched the news you would know this, as what happened in Palmyra and Afghanistan in the last few years.

To destroy artifacts and symbols of other religions that are defined as idols, while preserving your own idolatry under the guise of 'veneration' and 'nexus worship' is a deep form of hypocrisy.

It does pain me greatly knowing that so many ancient Mesopotamian statues and temples and ruins have been destroyed as per some perceived religious obligation to destroy "idols" of other cultures.

It is not all Muslims who do this, it is primarily individuals and groups who interpret their spiritual-religious system in a particular way that encourages destruction and violence (not that I have anything against that... minus the obliteration of my ancestors' temples).

 

[MD]

It does pain me greatly knowing that so many ancient Mesopotamian statues and temples and ruins have been destroyed as per some perceived religious obligation to destroy "idols" of other cultures.

It is not all Muslims who do this, it is primarily individuals and groups who interpret a spiritual-religious system in a particular way that encourages destruction and violence (not that I have anything against that... minus the obliteration of my ancestors' temples).

No learn your history, one of the greatest duties of jihad is to destroy shirk (or what muslims deem as shirk, since they practice their own form of it). It is not individuals or whatever, it is part and parcel of the faith. This is why no places of worship aside from Islam are allowed in SA.

 

[Tumah]

I have always wondered if Muslims also practice a lighter form of idol worship due to the extreme reverence they place on the Quran and the Kaaba. I won't get into how Shia's ask Ali for help or the Sufis who pray to saints, I will simply focus on mainstream Islam at the moment.

Why circle a black rock in the middle of a desert,pray towards it, and then claim one is not associating some divinity to this rock? Especially if the rock was a pagan temple before it became Islam's holiest symbol.

The Quran is simply a book with words, even if those words are from God as Muslims believe, why practice such extreme forms of reverence? Wouldn't God's words be available everywhere, in everything? Wouldn't all aspects of creation have his presence? Why argue, fight and even kill those who insult this book?

What do you think?

So long as they don't attribute divinity to the item, I don't see why you should conflate extreme reverence and worship.

I am aware that in English the terms can be synonymous, but that's a characteristic of English and doesn't detract from the fact that they also have meaning that are not synonymous.