• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God?

Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God?

  • I belong to one of these religions and believe they worship the same God

    Votes: 8 28.6%
  • I belong to one of these religions and believe they worship different Gods

    Votes: 4 14.3%
  • I belong to neither religion and believe they worship the same God

    Votes: 11 39.3%
  • I belong to neither religion and believe they worship different Gods

    Votes: 5 17.9%

  • Total voters
    28

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If you ignore the former is more accurate in all aspects, including science.
1. if a book is correct about 1 thing, that doesn't mean it is correct about all things

2. I'm not talking about "all aspects". I'm talking about one specific claim therein. In that specific claim, concerns a narrative of a supposed event that happened in the past, written 600 years after it supposedly happened. Sources closer to the event are far more likely to be more accurate. That's just logic. So if both narratives disagree on big parts of it, right out the gates I see no reason to give more credibility to the narrative that came 5 centuries after the supposed facts.



Consider the event of Woodstock 69.
2 people who were there recount the event to their kids. They tell their kids.
1 of them writes it down in a report.
The other tells his/her kids, who tell their kids, who tell their kids, who tell..... and this goes on for 40 generations. Then one of them writes it down.


Which of the two narratives would you expect to be the most accurate depiction of Woodstock? The one that got written down after 2-3 generations? Or the one that was written down after 45 generations?


That's all I'm saying.
 

calm

Active Member
You really should research each "prophet" individually. Kebra Nagast has ot all wrong.
No, he doesn't have everything wrong. Everything he says is true.
A question, you have entered "Christian" as religion but I notice again and again that you are trying to refute the Bible. Can I ask why?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No, he doesn't have everything wrong. Everything he says is true.
A question, you have entered "Christian" as religion but I notice again and again that you are trying to refute the Bible. Can I ask why?

I'm not refuting the Bible... I am studying who the prophets were, when they lived and where the myths of Genesis, Exodus and Joshua came from.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Whats the theory? Based on what? If you don't mind me asking.

Who wrote the Book of Isaiah?
The King Hezekiah theory. According to tradition first appearing in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law redacted in Babylonia at about 500 CE (Bava Batra 14b-15a), the Book of Isaiah was written by King Hezekiah, who reigned from 715 to 686 BCE, and his aides.
Reference: www.haaretz.com/jewish/who-really-wrote-the-book-of-isaiah-1.5431430


You might also research schools for prophets, the Book of Daniel (there was no Daniel) and the ages of the Book of Enoch.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Who wrote the Book of Isaiah?
The King Hezekiah theory. According to tradition first appearing in the Talmud, a compendium of Jewish law redacted in Babylonia at about 500 CE (Bava Batra 14b-15a), the Book of Isaiah was written by King Hezekiah, who reigned from 715 to 686 BCE, and his aides.
Reference: www.haaretz.com/jewish/who-really-wrote-the-book-of-isaiah-1.5431430


You might also research schools for prophets, the Book of Daniel (there was no Daniel) and the ages of the Book of Enoch.

Brother. I didn't know you were Jewish. I don't wish to deny your faith or anything. I just don't agree because the Babylonian Talmud makes the statement that King Hezekiah wrote Isaiah. But it also says that "King Hezekiah and his company wrote Isaiah, Proverbs, Songs, and Ecclesiastes." And I quote from the Talmud Baba Bathra p45.

Recent scholarship and studies by philologists have shown that these books cannot have been written by the same person, school of thought nor was it written during the same times with the same philosophy.

Also the same page in the baba bathra it says I quote "Moses wrote his book and a portion of Bil'am [Numbers, xxii.], and Job".

Do you really believe that Moses wrote all of this?
.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Brother. I didn't know you were Jewish. I don't wish to deny your faith or anything. I just don't agree because the Babylonian Talmud makes the statement that King Hezekiah wrote Isaiah. But it also says that "King Hezekiah and his company wrote Isaiah, Proverbs, Songs, and Ecclesiastes." And I quote from the Talmud Baba Bathra p45.

Recent scholarship and studies by philologists have shown that these books cannot have been written by the same person, school of thought nor was it written during the same times with the same philosophy.

Also the same page in the baba bathra it says I quote "Moses wrote his book and a portion of Bil'am [Numbers, xxii.], and Job".

Do you really believe that Moses wrote all of this?
.

I'm not Jewish and I know Moses never wrote anything if he existed at all. All the scriptures were redacted and amended multiple times. Judaism and Christianity have always been political.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm not Jewish and I know Moses never wrote anything if he existed at all. All the scriptures were redacted and amended multiple times. Judaism and Christianity have always been political.

Great. My point is that the same page, from the Talmud, that your source has used to say that Hezekiah wrote Isiah says that Moses also wrote, and that Hezekiah wrote many other books.

So, my question is, why are you so convinced that Hezekiah definitely wrote Isiah but not with the other assertions coming from the same paragraph of the talmud that says anything that supports your assessment? The same paragraph. Same page. Same book.

Do you understand my question?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Great. My point is that the same page, from the Talmud, that your source has used to say that Hezekiah wrote Isiah says that Moses also wrote, and that Hezekiah wrote many other books.

So, my question is, why are you so convinced that Hezekiah definitely wrote Isiah but not with the other assertions coming from the same paragraph of the talmud that says anything that supports your assessment? The same paragraph. Same page. Same book.

Do you understand my question?

Most of the prophesy books have been mangled and mutilated over time.. Moses never wrote anything. Daniel is group project based on a popular Canaanite character from a poem that is from Syria 1500 years before Judaism.

There was no Isaiah either... he is a fiction.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Most of the prophesy books have been mangled and mutilated over time.. Moses never wrote anything. Daniel is group project based on a popular Canaanite character from a poem that is from Syria 1500 years before Judaism.

There was no Isaiah either... he is a fiction.

Then why do you insist that Isiah was written by Hezekiah based on the same paragraph from the same book that says Moses wrote the book himself?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You are missing the point being made.

I was correcting part of your point. The earliest complete manuscript is 3rd century.

It's about believing the quran over the bible concerning the crucifixion of jesus.
The biblical narrative however is way closer to the alledged event then the islamic narrative.

Yes due to non-Christian sources not Christian sources.

Right out the gates, sources closer to the alledged events are more likely to be closer to the actual truth of the event then sources further removed from it.

Which is not the Bible. See above

It doesn't really make much sense that a narrative 600 years after the supposed fact is apparantly more accurate in its description then a narrative a mere century after the alledged event.

Of course.

Just to add Islam's claim isn't even unique. Christian groups before Mo denied the crucifixion including a change in person being crucified such as First Apocalypse of James
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Every prophet in the Old Testament prophesied the crucifixion and the resurrection.
Even in the name of the Father is the crucifixion! For the name of the Father YAHUAH means:
Behold (a) Hand, Behold (a) Nail.


Here are some prophecies of the prophets about the crucifixion of Jesus:

Thus MOSES, the servant of God, prophesied and said, "Ye shall see your salvation crucified upon the wood, and shall not believe."8

Thus DAVID prophesied and said, "Many dogs have seized Me; and they drove nails through My hands and 1

Thus ISAIAH prophesied concerning the Incarnation and Crucifixion of CHRIST, and said, "Who believeth our word, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? And we spake like a child before Him: and He is like a root in parched ground, He hath no beauty and no form; and His form is more rejected and abased than [that of] any man. He is a broken man and a man of suffering; for He hath turned away His face, and they treat Him with contempt and esteem Him as nothing."2

Thus SOLOMON prophesied and said, "Let us kill the righteous man, for he is a burden unto us; he setteth himself up against our works, he resisteth our intentions continually, and we are an abomination unto him because of our sins."3And he continued, saying, "My son, let not wicked men lead thee astray; if they say unto thee, 'Come with us, be a partner with us, let us hide innocent blood and take plunder from him; and let there be one purse common to us all': withdraw thyself from their footsteps, for let it not be through thee that the birds find the net."4

Thus DAVID prophesied and said, "They cast gall into My meat, and they gave Me vinegar to drink to [quench] My thirst."5

Thus prophesied ISAIAH the Prophet and said, "He hath taken our disease and carried our sickness, and by His wound we are healed; and we saw Him suffering, and wounded in his pain; and He opened not His mouth in His pain, and He came to be slaughtered; like a lamb before his shearer He opened not His mouth in 1

Thus JEREMIAH the Prophet prophesied and said, "And they took the price of the honourable one thirty [pieces of] silver, whom they had honoured among the children of ISRAEL. And God said unto me, Cast it into the melting pot, and test it [and see] if it be pure; and they gave it for the field of the potter; as God hath commanded me I will speak."2

Thus ISAIAH the Prophet prophesied and said, "They counted Him with the sinners, and brought Him to death."3

Thus DAVID the Prophet prophesied and said, "Those who hate Me wrongfully are many, and they have rewarded Me with evil for good."4

Thus ZECHARIAH the Prophet prophesied and said, "And they shall look upon Him Whom they have crucified and pierced."5

Now there are still very many passages which have been written and many prophecies which might be mentioned concerning His coming, and His Crucifixion, and His death, and His Resurrection, and His second coming in glory. But we have only mentioned a few of the prophecies of the prophets—we have mentioned one of each kind—so that ye may hear, and believe, and understand, even as it is said in the Acts of the Apostles, "By the Gospel Thou hast guided us, and by the Prophets Thou hast comforted us; for the words of the Prophets make right the faith of those who doubt."6
Source: The Kebra Nagast: 109. Concerning His Crucifixion

This has nothing to do with my post. My post was about the earliest sources for the crucifixion which isn't 70ad
 

syo

Well-Known Member
The general Islamic view is yes, they worship the same God.

I'm not certain about the Christian view. It appears to vary quite a bit which is why I am particularly interested in the Christian view on this.

Why do you think they worship the same God/different Gods?
The orthodox christians believe in the trinity. The Father of the trinity is the same with the muslim God. But orthodox have a trinity God.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
The orthodox christians believe in the trinity. The Father of the trinity is the same with the muslim God. But orthodox have a trinity God.

Kindly educate yourself before you speak any more ignorant words.

Muslims do not worship the same god as God. They do not have the same Jesus. And they certainly don't have the same Trinity.

They got their Christianity from Nestorians, and even admit as much.

Trinity? Mary, Jesus, and Allah, I think it was. But they believe this to be the Trinity other ppl worship. For themselves they say "Allah had no son" and see Trinity beliefs as a sort of poltytheism, until they are called upon to lie and say they have the same belief in the Trinity (taqiyya).

what about Jesus? What about God? Well, they are so far removed as to be against the commandment about taking the Lord's name in vain (which is wrongly declared to be about saying God damn it, when actually it is about ruining God's reputation). God, as Allah, is called called on who "deceives who he wills" effectively calling him a liar, and then later telling followers that this Allah prescribes violence for them, as in this Allah demands people kill for other people. Are we taking the Lord's name in vain here? Hell yes. And we continue to do so, as it calls Jesus a shirk who allows others to die for him, rather than the one who died for all, and one whose stated goal is to destroy the cross, bring fear and violence upon unbelievers (read: non-Muslims), and kill pigs. This is actually what the Quran and Sueahs say.
 

Wasp

Active Member
Kindly educate yourself before you speak any more ignorant words.

They got their Christianity from Nestorians, and even admit as much.

Trinity? Mary, Jesus, and Allah, I think it was. But they believe this to be the Trinity other ppl worship. For themselves they say "Allah had no son" and see Trinity beliefs as a sort of poltytheism, until they are called upon to lie and say they have the same belief in the Trinity (taqiyya).

what about Jesus? What about God? Well, they are so far removed as to be against the commandment about taking the Lord's name in vain (which is wrongly declared to be about saying God damn it, when actually it is about ruining God's reputation). God, as Allah, is called called on who "deceives who he wills" effectively calling him a liar, and then later telling followers that this Allah prescribes violence for them, as in this Allah demands people kill for other people. Are we taking the Lord's name in vain here? Hell yes. And we continue to do so, as it calls Jesus a shirk who allows others to die for him, rather than the one who died for all, and one whose stated goal is to destroy the cross, bring fear and violence upon unbelievers (read: non-Muslims), and kill pigs. This is actually what the Quran and Sueahs say.

You gave good advice you could use yourself:
Kindly educate yourself before you speak any more ignorant words.
 

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
All of the Qur'an is the word of Allah.
OK, that is good to know. The way I looked at it : Either Allah spoke directly and was quoted verbatim or the prophet paraphrased what he was told, or the prophet made his own statements and conclusions.

The little I have read, it seems that Allah speaks in the Quran using "We" and "Us" (plural is used for honoring others , and a few use it to refer to themselves -- similar to Aap (You) and hum (I as We) in Hindi).

The quote used the words "Writers of Surah"
 
Top