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Do Muslim women believe that Islam protects women's rights more than other religions?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by danieldemol, May 26, 2017.

  1. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Do Muslim women believe that Islam protects women's rights more than other religions? If so why?
     
  2. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Only if they have been brainwashed.
     
  3. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    From what I have glimpsed and tentatively guessed, sure, many Muslims do indeed believe or at least claim that Islaam protects women's rights above most other situations.

    Often hinted or directly mentioned reasons seem to include:

    - The stability that comes from the rigidly defined social roles of a Islaamic society, where there is no true question on whether people should marry and have children. In some societies, there is no question on whether they can leave their homes without a male relative, either. Muslim societies do not leave a lot of room for doubt about what people will pursue for their individual lives. If nothing else, that may be appealling to people who value stability and ease of decision.

    - The clear stance of valuing female modesty to the point that people don't seem to see a reason to ask indiivual women whether they would like to show more of their bodies in everyday wear.

    - Of course, there is always the simple underlying (and not at all hidden) belief that a Muslim woman, by virtue of having access to the counsel and guidance of Islaam, has that much higher a likelihood of pleasing God and enjoying a better quality of life (and afterlife) than she would otherwise have.

    There are doubtlessly many more nuances, but it is best that others try their hand at explaining them.
     
    #3 LuisDantas, May 26, 2017
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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  4. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Islam is more like a protection racket than a protector of anyone’s individual rights.

    “Over the past two decades I have heard countless stories from women who were ostracised by their communities and let down by the agencies who should have helped them. One young woman, Laila, had been emotionally blackmailed into a marriage at the age of 18. Forced to live with her in-laws in a house with seven others, she spent her days not at college as she had wanted, but cooking and cleaning for her in-laws. They didn't even allow her access to the toilet and she was forced to use a jug in her bedroom even during labour. "I was treated like a slave to the rest of the family," she told me. When she begged midwives and health visitors for help they weren't interested. When she approached social services, "they couldn't care less".”

    How many more women like Shafilea Ahmed must die before we take action? | Sara Khan

    Women are left vulnerable to abuse if their marriage is not recognised in British law - Muslim marriages like George Galloway's should be registered | Sara Khan
     
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  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    In their zeal to protect women from harm, they've relegated them to the status of perpetual children. Constant monitoring and no personal autonomy.
     
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  6. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    I think this is a key point. It might be a tad hyperbolic to call Islam a "death cult", but it does share many characteristics with such. So as a Muslim you sacrifice quality of life in the hopes of a fantastic afterlife. (Although the Quran's depiction of the afterlife is consistently misogynistic as well - sigh.)
     
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  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Not at least in India. The Muslim women of India have approached the Supreme Court to rescind 'triple talaq' (where even a WhatApp message which mentions talaq thrice gives the Muslim men divorce), and give them the property, alimony and custody of children right as available under the civil law. The court has to pronounce its judgment soon (otherwise the government has declared that it will bring a law on its own).
     
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  8. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Ouch. I wonder if any Muslims will venture by and defend the misogynistic death cult of Islaam. :)
     
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  9. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    That sounds more like slavery than relationship husband and wife.

    Actually male slaves are better treated in the past, than wives today or in the past.
     
  10. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    It makes you wonder what kind of mentality would drive young women and girls to join ISIS unless they are leaving behind a culture that treats them no better in their own countries.
     
  11. Sakeenah

    Sakeenah Well-Known Member

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    Muslim woman here :) I think that Islam protects women's rights. I haven't studied the rights of women in other religions so I'm not sure if it's more or less.

    There are misconceptions in regards to the rights of women in Islam. I think the reason is lack of Islamic understanding and due to the actions of some muslims that are mostly based on culture.Honor killings, forced marriages,denying women education are all cultural practices.
    The Quran mentions that women have rights.

    “And for women are rights over men, similar to those of men over women.”Qur’an 2:228

    Equal rights in reward and accountability:

    Men and women in Islam worship Allah in the same way, perform the same acts of worship, follow the same scripture, and hold the same beliefs.
    "Never will I allow the loss of the work of any worker amongst you, male or female; you are of one another.”Qur’an 3:195

    This verse show that reward is dependent on one’s actions and not gender. In Islam gender does not play any part in how a person is rewarded and judged.

    Economic rights:
    -Women have the right to work and have a profession. There is no restriction in Islamic law that says that her only place is in the home. Actually in a true Islamic society, there must be women physicians, women nurses, women teachers etc.
    If a woman has any earnings during her marriage from investments or work, she doesn't have to spend it on the household, she can decide how she wants to spend it.

    - If the muslim woman happened to own any property prior to marriage, she keeps that property after marriage. It remains under her control. Also, in most Muslim countries, the woman keeps her own last name, and her own identity.

    - If a widow or divorcee has children, she's entitled to child support.

    Right to get an education:

    According to Islam, women have the right to pursue an education. The prophet muhammad said that education is a duty on every person, male and female. There are well known female scholars in Islamic history,they teached men and women. There are those who think women can't teach men but to say a female scholar cannot teach men because some men may find her attractive is the same as prohibiting women from listening to a male scholar, since women have desires as well.

    Abu Musa al-Ash’ari (scholar of the companions) is reported to have said about Aicha:

    “Sometimes we the companions of Muhammad ﷺ would get confused about Islamic teachings. We would then go and ask Aisha about it and we found she always had the knowledge we were seeking in it.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi, 3883)

    During the rule of Umar(second caliph and companion of prophet muhammad), women participated in law making. Umar made a proposal of a certain regulation in regards to marriage. A woman in the mosque stood up and said, "'Umar, you can't do that." 'Umar did not tell her, " you are a woman, you have nothing to do with politics." He asked, "Why?" She made her argument on the basis of Quran. In front of everybody, he stood up and said, "The woman is right and Umar is wrong," and he withdrew his proposal.

    Rights to choose a spouse:

    In Islam women can choose their spouse.Many people think that in Islam parents are allowed to force their daughters into marriage. This is a cultural practice, and has no basis in Islam. Forced marriages are prohibited in Islam.
    At the time of Prophet Muhammad phub, a woman came to him and said, “My father has married me to my cousin to raise his social standing and I was forced into it.” The Prophet sent for the girl’s father and then in his presence gave the girl the option of remaining married or nullifying the marriage. She responded, “O Messenger of Allah, I have accepted what my father did, but I wanted to show other women (that they could not be forced into a marriage).”

    As you can see Islam does protect and recognize the rights of women but I think the issue is lack of application, or misapplication of Islamic teachings by Muslims.
    I think it's important that we don't judge Islam by the state of Muslims today. Islam is much bigger than that,there were many great muslim generations who were not only relevant but standard setters for civilization in general.
     
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  12. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Are all these cultural practices based on the teachings of Muhammad?
     
  13. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Sakeenah,
    Baha'u'llah had to struggle against many such cultural practices throughout the Persian and Ottoman empires including the practice of wife beating as well.

    That is why these things are forbidden in the Baha'i faith and the reason it strikes me as uninformed for the odd Muslim male to state that Islam is the only religion that offers such protections, or that it does more so than any other religion. Hence the reason I wondered if Muslim women thought this as well, however if your answer is indicative, there is less certainty amongst Muslim women that this is the case.

    Thank you for taking the time to piece together an informative and thoughtful reply :)
     
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  14. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    The perks of a prophet –

     
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  15. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    If it is misapplication of Islamic teaching or of the Qur'an, then you are saying that the passage within the Qur'an, is unclear.

    And if the Qur'an is unclear, then the fault is with the Qur'an itself, for not being more clear, unambiguous and definitive in transmitting its message.

    The problem I find with reading the Qur'an, is its attempts at being metaphoric, and using metaphors are never clear, because (metaphoric) passages are often open to a number of interpretations.

    Often I find metaphors are jumble up with literal, which make it often difficult to determine where metaphors start and end. When the line between metaphors and literal are blurred, then the fault laid with the author (Muhammad).

    I think the author (Muhammad) is trying to be "mysterious" and failing miserably at it, because at times, the passage become uncertain to the point of being incoherent.

    The other problem with using metaphors, is when Muslims interpreted those passages as literal. I often see some Christians make this sort of mistakes too with the gospels and especially with Revelation.

    John 1 for instance, where the author described Jesus as "Logos" or the "Word". I see that all metaphors, and yet I see Christians often treat this chapter as literal. That's problematic because if treated as literal, then Jesus become "God", instead of just the "son of God".

    With the gospels, you would often find Jesus teach his disciples and the public with parables, and parables are very obvious metaphors, so you would able to see where metaphors (parables) start and end.

    That's not so easy to see with the Qur'an, because the metaphors are often, all jumble up with non-metaphors.

    When that happened, misunderstanding can occur, then the faults belonged to the author (Muhammad) for being so chaotic and disorganised with his use of metaphors.

    Again, if they (today's Muslims) are using the Qur'an as the basis for their actions, and their actions have negative effects towards women, and you think it is because due to misapplication, which itself is to misunderstanding certain passages, and that passages are unclear and not definitive...then the faults lay with the Qur'an, and thereby Islam is at false.

    My answer is the same as my previous response.

    Misunderstanding the passages in the Qur'an, when passages may have multiple meanings, which lead to multiple interpretations, then the Qur'an is not being clear and unambiguous in transmission of the messages. If that's the case, then the faults laid with the Qur'an and with its author (Muhammad).

    So the bottom line is if the Qur'an isn't clear, unambiguous and definitive with its teaching, then the real problem lies with the author - Muhammad.

    There is no Qur'an and Islam without Muhammad. So if Muhammad is disorganised and unclear with his teachings, as layout with the Qur'an, then the faults do indeed lay with Islam.
     
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  16. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I would agree that Muslim women should have equal rights, whether the be mother, wife, daughter or sister, but the Qur'an doesn't give them equal rights.

    Man and woman are not treat as equals in marriage.

    For instance, the infamous Qur'an 4:34:

    I don't want to get into the argument about whether "scourge them" (Pickthall) or "strike them" (Sahih International) vs "beat them (lightly)" (Yusuf Ali). No this isn't my point for quoting 4:34, and I don't want to focus on the penal punishment...although personally, I do have a problem with it.

    My problem is with your claim that Muslim women have equal rights. But clearly they don't.

    The first sentence - "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women)."

    Here, we example that the partnership in marriage is not equal. The Muslim being head of the family, therefore he is "in charge" doesn't mean "equal right", if one is in charge of the other.

    If woman (wife) had equal rights, then they would be both in charge, shared responsibility.

    None of that sentence even implied "equal rights". In fact, it is very clear that husband have been given superiority over his wife.

    The next 3 sentences, are clear, that wife must be "obedient" towards her husband, and if they disobey, they can be punished, going so far as "strike", "beat" or "scourge" them.

    That doesn't sound like a marriage of equal. It sounds more like a relationship between master and slave (or servant).

    A marriage is not equal, when one has to be "obedient" towards the other, and when one has potential punishment hanging over head, should she be "disobedient".

    I have learned from past experiences with my arguments with Muslims that "disobedient" part relates to wife committing adultery. Nothing in that verse, explicitly indicated that disobedience=adultery.

    All the verse does say Allah made men superior over their wives, and they were in their rights to punish their wives, should the wives ever be "disobedient".

    Disobedience could mean anything. The verse is not clear what this disobedience means.

    What if the wife is wiser and smarter than her husband, and the husband was doing something wrong. Should she obey him, even if he was doing something (morally or legally) wrong?

    In the real world, men are not always right or wise or intelligent.

    Should a woman follow her husband's order even if the order is wrong? Should she be punished when she is right and he is wrong?

    And with respect, Sakeenah, you are wrong, the first line does indicate "gender" matter in the Qur'an, not "action" so you have claimed, when it state Allah put men "in charge", because -

    Here, Allah clearly don't see women as their husbands' "equal".
     
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  17. Notanumber

    Notanumber A Free Man

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    Are you a garment?



    About 50% of Islamists must be.
     
  18. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting that muslim-majority societies do not match your description and that the evils found there are common across diverse societies. I don't buy your "culture" cop-out. What counts is what people do.

    Those evils are even found where muslims live among others. In Scandinavia, muslims have become notorious as rapists, for example.

    The best that can be said for islam is that it is ineffective where morality is concerned.
     
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  19. beenie

    beenie Veteran Member
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    Islam did indeed give women more rights than they had prior, but it certainly didn't give women equal rights to men. We can't pretend something exists when it doesn't. Unfortunately, that ambiguity has allowed centuries of misapplication of the few additional rights women were given.
     
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  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    I'm starting to think when non-Muslim's pose questions about Islam it is not about sincere curiousity but about starting a conflict to draw other people who have disdain for Muslims and Islam to discussion.
     
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