Do Moral Ideals Matter?

[Sunstone]

Given the often observed fact that people frequently fall short of living up to their moral ideals, is it important to have moral ideals? Do they matter?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Morals ideals are rarely achieved but I'd say I think they still work as a guideline and safeguard against ethical nihilism.

 

[Sunstone]

Morals ideals are rarely achieved but I'd say I think they still work as a guideline and safeguard against ethical nihilism.

Thanks for the post!

Do they work better than other things?

 

[Terry Sampson]

ethical nihilism

Didja recently enroll in an on-line Moral Philosophy course, by any chance?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Didja recently enroll in an on-line Moral Philosophy course, by any chance?

I'd like to hear what you mean. Could be a good discussion .

Actually, before my sickness, I used to play an active role on a debate site, and my strong subject was Ethics & Morality.

 

[Terry Sampson]

'd like to hear what you mean. Could be a good discussion

I doubt it. I think I know what ethical nihilism may mean, but I won't swear to it, and your use of the term caused me to wonder where you picked it up. Or is it a neologism of your own making? (In case it's not obvious, I haven't googled the term.)

 

[gnomon]

Given the often observed fact that people frequently fall short of living up to their moral ideals, is it important to have moral ideals? Do they matter?

What often observed fact?

Whose moral ideals?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I doubt it. I think I know what ethical nihilism may mean, but I won't swear to it, and your use of the term caused me to wonder where you picked it up. Or is it a neologism of your own making? (In case it's not obvious, I haven't googled the term.)

The definition gets complicated. If you are arguing against my use of the word, some articles will agree with you, and some articles I think will agree with me.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Moral nihilism - Wikipedia

 

[Terry Sampson]

If you are arguing against my use of the word

I'm too ignorant to argue for or against your use of the term.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I see now you were probably just asking for clarification, and not arguing. My picking up the term just has a lot of backstory behind it.

 

[74x12]

Given the often observed fact that people frequently fall short of living up to their moral ideals, is it important to have moral ideals? Do they matter?

Yes, you'll never be perfect but it give you something to try for.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I guess I'll tell a part of the backstory. I used to talk to a couple of people who I would describe as Unitarian Universalists and strong debaters, like 19 years old but I was only like 21 at the time. They came from expensive schools and helped me with my ideas and vocabulary. I've lost a lot of that knowledge over the years, but it's a term I remember.

 

[Terry Sampson]

1. I see now you were probably just asking for clarification, and not arguing.
   
2. My picking up the term just has a lot of backstory behind it.

#1. Yep.
#2. Indeed.

I read: "some nihilists contend that it remains a useful tool".
Ha! To paraphrase a previous quote that I've posted in RF, which goes like this: "All models are wrong; but some models are useful", I suppose some nihilists would say "All morals are wrong; but some morals are useful". No?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

#1. Yep.
#2. Indeed.

I read: "some nihilists contend that it remains a useful tool".
Ha! To paraphrase a previous quote that I've posted in RF, which goes like this: "All models are wrong; but some models are useful", I suppose some nihilists would say "All morals are wrong; but some morals are useful". No?

Probably. I see nihilism as much like trying to stop yourself from experiencing emotion - you may achieve it for a short while, it may even help you think and debate more logically, but there are long term effects, and much like that bottle of water you drank, emotions can't stay in forever.

 

[Terry Sampson]

emotions can't stay in forever.

Has anyone proposed an emotional morality: like, "Follow your feelings"??

 

[sun rise]

Given the often observed fact that people frequently fall short of living up to their moral ideals, is it important to have moral ideals? Do they matter?

I was about to write that without such ideals we'd be no better than lower animals but there are examples of behavior in such animals that look and feel like morality albeit on an instinctual basis.

So my answer is a qualified yes based on at least two factors. One is culturally based morality versus universal. The other is that knowledge can lead to a higher morality overriding common morality.

One qualification is that some morality is culturally or religion based and varies by culture and religion. Such moral principles are to me less important to try to live up to. One simple example are whether or not men should have beards - a man without a beard is violating the tenets of some religions and thus acting in an immoral manner.

But there are common ethical/moral principles that are pretty close to being universal. The Golden Rule might be expressed in terms of karma, by reference to some particular scripture or as a humanist ethical principle.

Something so universal must to me have intrinsic value and thus be worthwhile trying to live up to.

Another qualification relates to knowledge. There is a neat story in the Quran about Moses and Khizr. The "executive summary" is that Moses wanted to travel with Khizr to learn more wisdom. Khizr said that Moses was too ignorant but allowed him to join the journey. As they traveled, Khizr did actions which seemed cruel and immoral and that upset Moses greatly. At the end Khizr explained why he had done what he did. For example, in sinking a boat of a boatman, he stopped a cruel king from seizing the boat. So knowledge can override morality because a higher morality is involved.

So finally, yes, morality is worth striving for but along with that we should understand that some morality is relative and some might be superseded by a higher morality based on knowledge.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Has anyone proposed an emotional morality: like, "Follow your feelings"??

The best I personally can come up with:

Existentialism - Wikipedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Given the often observed fact that people frequently fall short of living up to their moral ideals, is it important to have moral ideals? Do they matter?

"It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will not reach our ultimate goal. The effort itself yields its own reward." - Gene Roddenberry

 

[Dawnofhope]

Given the often observed fact that people frequently fall short of living up to their moral ideals, is it important to have moral ideals? Do they matter?

I don't know if Michelangelo really said this but it seems highly relevant here:

"The great danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."