Do I really have to go to an Orthodox Rabbi to convert/become a "Real Jew"

[JaneSmith]

I want to convert to Judaism, but only have Reform and Conservative Temples around me.
I keep reading that Orthodox is the only branch of Judaism that is recognized as "Truly Jewish" if a person wants to convert.
I want to become a fully fledged Jew, but am in a dilemma.

I have a called up a Conservative Rabbi to talk about conversion at the Temple, but now I feel confused.
DO I really need to go out of my way (about 45 miles or more) to find a Orthodox Temple and Rabbi?

 

[Tamar]

I want to convert to Judaism, but only have Reform and Conservative Temples around me.
I keep reading that Orthodox is the only branch of Judaism that is recognized as "Truly Jewish" if a person wants to convert.
I want to become a fully fledged Jew, but am in a dilemma.

I have a called up a Conservative Rabbi to talk about conversion at the Temple, but now I feel confused.
DO I really need to go out of my way (about 45 miles or more) to find a Orthodox Temple and Rabbi?

No, Orthodox recognize only orthodox. There are other movements within Judaism. Conservative, reform and reconstructionist recognize others conversions as long as the convert goes through the halachic rituals of conversion. A period of study with a rabbi, becoming part of a Jewish community, and making a Jewish home.

Talk to the rabbi, work with a rabbi you feel comfortable with. Learning about Judaism will take time. Once you learn more you will know how you want to proceed. Becoming Jewish is a journey.

 

[Levite]

I want to convert to Judaism, but only have Reform and Conservative Temples around me.
I keep reading that Orthodox is the only branch of Judaism that is recognized as "Truly Jewish" if a person wants to convert.
I want to become a fully fledged Jew, but am in a dilemma.

I have a called up a Conservative Rabbi to talk about conversion at the Temple, but now I feel confused.
DO I really need to go out of my way (about 45 miles or more) to find a Orthodox Temple and Rabbi?

Let's clarify what the real issue here is. If all you're concerned about is authenticity under Jewish Law, a Conservative conversion will work just as well as an Orthodox conversion; and a Reform one will do the trick also, as long as you are clear with the rabbi working with you that you really want a fully halachic, kosher conversion-- by the book, as it were.

If what you are thinking about is the possibility that you might wish to be Orthodox, or that you might wish to make aliyah (emigrate to Israel), then it becomes needful to have an Orthodox conversion. Because the Orthodox, generally speaking, will not accept non-Orthodox conversions, and if you want to make aliyah, the Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) institutions will give you dreadful trouble without an Orthodox conversion. This is really only true for making aliyah, though-- not for casual visitation.

Granted, I am biased, but I recommend a Conservative conversion. You know what you're going to get with Conservative conversions, and you know without having to ask or inquire that it will be by-the-book kosher. I'm not saying you can't find that with a Reform rabbi, but you never can be sure without pressing for it.

 

[Flankerl]

The problem most people(me included) have with reform conversions is that often they leave out stuff which they deem unimportant.

I dont even know if thats just a problem in the USA because reform judaism in europe is way more orthodox/conservative than in the USA.
If you'd tell a reform jew in europe that (some) reform jews in the USA dont observe the shabbat in any way, eat pork and so forth they wouldnt believe you.



Also i just realised that iam not even on topic.

Must be the sleepiness... nevermind.

 

[Dena]

The problem most people(me included) have with reform conversions is that often they leave out stuff which they deem unimportant.

I dont even know if thats just a problem in the USA because reform judaism in europe is way more orthodox/conservative than in the USA.
If you'd tell a reform jew in europe that (some) reform jews in the USA dont observe the shabbat in any way, eat pork and so forth they wouldnt believe you.

Also i just realised that iam not even on topic.

Must be the sleepiness... nevermind.

You are on topic in a round about way.

Jane, I had a non-Orthodox conversion. It is true the Orthodox do not accept my conversion but because I had a Beit Din and went to the mikveh it's kosher enough for everyone else. If you feel Orthodoxy is right for you then you'll need to speak to a Rabbi about it and you'll likely have to move. You can't live 45 miles from the community while converting except in rare cases.

 

[Rhiamom]

Why do people keep thinking you need an Orthodox conversion to emigrate to Israel? Right now it is harder for an Orthodox convert than a Conservative to emigrate. The Chief Rabbinate in Israel will only recognize the conversions done by a few ultra-Orthodox rabbis, and they invalidate the others. However, the Chief Rabbinate has no authority over Conservative conversions, and the Masorti in Israel accept all Conservative conversions. Not that you'd be considered Jewish by the government once there...

 

[Deut 13:1]

I want to convert to Judaism, but only have Reform and Conservative Temples around me.
I keep reading that Orthodox is the only branch of Judaism that is recognized as "Truly Jewish" if a person wants to convert.
I want to become a fully fledged Jew, but am in a dilemma.

I have a called up a Conservative Rabbi to talk about conversion at the Temple, but now I feel confused.
DO I really need to go out of my way (about 45 miles or more) to find a Orthodox Temple and Rabbi?

I don't think the Orthodox would convert you if you lived 45 miles away. How would you observe Shabbas? How would you get to shul three-times a day. I just don't see it happening unless you make life-changing decisions. Moving to a different community.

A lot depends on what you want in life. I always encourage people to have an Orthodox conversion if they are serious about it. Not just for them, but for their children. Think about this... You are converting to Judaism. You're going to be raising children as Jews. If they choose to become more observant, its a lot easier for them to make an aliyah or go to a yeshiva if there is no question about their family history.

 

[jazzymom]

I don't think the Orthodox would convert you if you lived 45 miles away. How would you observe Shabbas? How would you get to shul three-times a day. I just don't see it happening unless you make life-changing decisions. Moving to a different community.

A lot depends on what you want in life. I always encourage people to have an Orthodox conversion if they are serious about it. Not just for them, but for their children. Think about this... You are converting to Judaism. You're going to be raising children as Jews. If they choose to become more observant, its a lot easier for them to make an aliyah or go to a yeshiva if there is no question about their family history.

People convert through the community they are a part of. Orthodox don't recognize other conversions in the other movements. The other movements recognize each others conversions as long as the rituals of conversion are followed.

I am recognized by every movement except Orthodox. That does not bother me because as a Jew I will continue for the rest of my life to learn and to increase my observance.

My children will be able to marry non orthodox Jews and honestly I don't see them ever wanting to be orthodox but if they move in that direction when they grow up then they will cross that bridge.

As to Israel all Jews can go to Israel but there are issues of the orthodox rabbinate registering non orthodox converts as Jews. But they are also turning down orthodox converts. They are making it difficult for all Jews by choice.

But non orthodox Jews do make aliyah and they do have a support system with the masorti and reform movements in Israel.

I know Caladan probably has better information that I probably do. So I look forward to his input.

I think people need to work towards conversion within a community they are already a part of.

Becoming Jewish has a period of learning no matter what movement you are in, which involves working with a rabbi for a period of time, and building a Jewish home.

One can become more observant without joining an orthodox community.

 

[Deut 13:1]

People convert through the community they are a part of. Orthodox don't recognize other conversions in the other movements. The other movements recognize each others conversions as long as the rituals of conversion are followed.

I am recognized by every movement except Orthodox. That does not bother me because as a Jew I will continue for the rest of my life to learn and to increase my observance.

My children will be able to marry non orthodox Jews and honestly I don't see them ever wanting to be orthodox but if they move in that direction when they grow up then they will cross that bridge.

And if your children choose to marry an Orthodox Jew?

One can become more observant without joining an orthodox community.

My understanding and this is coming from a very sheltered perspective is that the reform and conservative believe in the same TaNaKh as us. They believe the same as us, but interpret how the commandments relate to them differently. The best example I can think of has to deal with kosher. I was brought up in a kosher house, two dishwashers, 3 sets of plates, 3 sets of silverware etc....

From MY UNDERSTANDING, and this could be completely wrong, but I was taught the conservative as an average, believe more in the spirit of keeping kosher. This would mean they still don't eat pork or shellfish and may keep dairy and meat separate but use the same dishware, silverware and glassware. Of course, this is a very bold generalization, but just go with it, I'm sure you can list a bunch of exceptions. This is just a general generalization.

The reform again believe in kosher, but interpret it more as a time-bound restriction that doesn't apply to them. Most will still avoid shellfish and seafood more out of tradition then belief, but will mix dairy and meat in the same meal. In the US, I'm sure its less strict then this, but I'm speaking as a whole of the reform Jews in the world.

Now to my point, a Jew is a Jew one of two ways.... They can trace their mother's lineage and her mothers and her mothers etc.... all the way back to Mt. Sanai when we received the Torah or they had a very valid conversion or their mother's mother's etc... had a conversion.

I'd say 3-4 days ago, I would absolutely say without any doubt that any non-orthodox conversation is invalid. I'm still not sure, but in one of the threads Levite was saying the conversion was identical to the orthodox. I feel I need to do more reading into it before I can really keep that same stance.

Either way, something I'm sure you've heard, if you get two Jews in a discussion about law, you get three different opinions. I was always brought up to err on the side of caution. After all, there are a lot of rabbinic laws that one could theoretically break, and still not break HaShem's law. A good example was a short discussion we had yesterday about opening a soda can during the Shabbath. There are several different opinions on the matter, but which is right?

 

[Harmonious]

I want to convert to Judaism, but only have Reform and Conservative Temples around me.
I keep reading that Orthodox is the only branch of Judaism that is recognized as "Truly Jewish" if a person wants to convert.
I want to become a fully fledged Jew, but am in a dilemma.

I have a called up a Conservative Rabbi to talk about conversion at the Temple, but now I feel confused.
DO I really need to go out of my way (about 45 miles or more) to find a Orthodox Temple and Rabbi?

You know... While what everyone said is correct, the fact is that if you convert the Orthodox way, you will be accepted by everyone. If you convert in another fashion, it brings to question your commitment.

What is your goal of converting? Is it to go with a feeling you have of a desire to belong? Or is it from a need to honor what Jewish souls said on Mount Sinsi: Na'aseh v'nishma (we will do and we will hear)?

As a non-Jew, God is happy with you fulfilling the Noachide commandments. There is no need for you to become Jewish to serve God.

If you wish to join the Jewish people, I would recommend the same level of vommitment as the Jews who originally accepted the Torah from God. It is strict, but each facet is filled with love.

I am aware that others disagree with me, but that is what I recommend.

 

[Harmonious]

I want to convert to Judaism, but only have Reform and Conservative Temples around me.
I keep reading that Orthodox is the only branch of Judaism that is recognized as "Truly Jewish" if a person wants to convert.
I want to become a fully fledged Jew, but am in a dilemma.

I have a called up a Conservative Rabbi to talk about conversion at the Temple, but now I feel confused.
DO I really need to go out of my way (about 45 miles or more) to find a Orthodox Temple and Rabbi?

I would say: short answer: yes.

 

[jazzymom]

And if your children choose to marry an Orthodox Jew?


My understanding and this is coming from a very sheltered perspective is that the reform and conservative believe in the same TaNaKh as us. They believe the same as us, but interpret how the commandments relate to them differently. The best example I can think of has to deal with kosher. I was brought up in a kosher house, two dishwashers, 3 sets of plates, 3 sets of silverware etc....

From MY UNDERSTANDING, and this could be completely wrong, but I was taught the conservative as an average, believe more in the spirit of keeping kosher. This would mean they still don't eat pork or shellfish and may keep dairy and meat separate but use the same dishware, silverware and glassware. Of course, this is a very bold generalization, but just go with it, I'm sure you can list a bunch of exceptions. This is just a general generalization.

The reform again believe in kosher, but interpret it more as a time-bound restriction that doesn't apply to them. Most will still avoid shellfish and seafood more out of tradition then belief, but will mix dairy and meat in the same meal. In the US, I'm sure its less strict then this, but I'm speaking as a whole of the reform Jews in the world.

Now to my point, a Jew is a Jew one of two ways.... They can trace their mother's lineage and her mothers and her mothers etc.... all the way back to Mt. Sanai when we received the Torah or they had a very valid conversion or their mother's mother's etc... had a conversion.

I'd say 3-4 days ago, I would absolutely say without any doubt that any non-orthodox conversation is invalid. I'm still not sure, but in one of the threads Levite was saying the conversion was identical to the orthodox. I feel I need to do more reading into it before I can really keep that same stance.

Either way, something I'm sure you've heard, if you get two Jews in a discussion about law, you get three different opinions. I was always brought up to err on the side of caution. After all, there are a lot of rabbinic laws that one could theoretically break, and still not break HaShem's law. A good example was a short discussion we had yesterday about opening a soda can during the Shabbath. There are several different opinions on the matter, but which is right?

I would be surprised if they marry into Orthodoxy. They are being raised in an egalitarian environment and I don't see Orthodoxy as egalitarian. They are surrounded by unaffiliated, Reform, and Conservative Jews so these are the movements I would see them as continuing to be a part of and to find partners in.

But if my children go the route of Orthodoxy then they will have decisions to make and as they grow up I will be open with them as to how they are viewed in the Orthodox community.

This is a sadness to me because instead of bringing Jews closer to Orthodoxy their stands push people away.

In my view Orthodoxy and the stand it has taken has driven a wedge into the Jewish people.

 

[Dena]

And if your children choose to marry an Orthodox Jew?

If my future children want to marry an Orthodox Jew they will have to undergo their own conversion. That's fine with me so long as they still respect their mother.

From MY UNDERSTANDING, and this could be completely wrong, but I was taught the conservative as an average, believe more in the spirit of keeping kosher. This would mean they still don't eat pork or shellfish and may keep dairy and meat separate but use the same dishware, silverware and glassware. Of course, this is a very bold generalization, but just go with it, I'm sure you can list a bunch of exceptions. This is just a general generalization.

Yes, there are always exceptions. I have separate dishware, silverware, pots, pans, etc. I would love, love, love to have seperate dishwasher compartments ( I think I will get one dishwasher with the two separate drawers rather than two dishwashers)but for now I just have one and meat dishes generally get washed by hand. I rarely cook meat and sometimes we use aluminum foil to cook it and eat on paper plates. I know...not the best thing for the environment but neither is using the ton of water I seem to use to wash dishes.

 

[Ascendedone]

I am a jew by choice (i.e. conversion). Please do not feel that you need to convert with an Orthodox rabbi. Your conversion is a covenant between yourself and G-d and no one else. Once you convert, you are under the house of Avraham v'Sarah. This means you have the right to go to Y'israel as any born Jew.

What concerns the Orthodox is adhesion to Torah and rabbinic law which conflicts with the observance within the American reform sect. This is also a tricky thing because technically, the Tanakh has many passages where G-d says "Follow my law and commandments". These are the 613 mitzvot. The rabbis have decided what is legal and not and there are many opinions and many conflicting ones. Also, the level of observance within any sect of Judaism differs between man and woman. Woman are decided by the rabbinic law not to follow any time sensitive mitzvot.

Furthermore, you could convert reform and practice orthodox Judaism. The conversion is a snapshot of your studies at that time and not foretelling of your studies or level of observance within your life time.

Do not let the sects dissuade you. This is your journey and as G-d says all through the tanakh if you honor his commandments, he will provide and love you.

 

[Suluby]

Interesting thread, people! :clap

I was born Jewish ..... but if pushed, I couldn't prove it. All anyone has is my word on it.

I know some Conservative rabbis in my area (suburban but more 'urban' than 'sub') who do conversions but work with Orthodox rabbis, so that there are no questions later on.

I've been involved with a few people who have converted that way ..... and right after the mikveh came the chuppah!

 

[SpentaMaynu]

As a non-Jew, God is happy with you fulfilling the Noachide commandments. There is no need for you to become Jewish to serve God.

Wow, an orthodox Jew saying it's okay to serve God without being Jewish? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting correctly what you meant - what I'm reading is that one can serve God in whichever way one wants as long as you serv God... Is that what you meant and, if it is, is that even allowed by Jewish law? Oh and one other thing - what is the Noachide commandments?

 

[dantech]

Wow, an orthodox Jew saying it's okay to serve God without being Jewish? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting correctly what you meant - what I'm reading is that one can serve God in whichever way one wants as long as you serv God... Is that what you meant and, if it is, is that even allowed by Jewish law? Oh and one other thing - what is the Noachide commandments?

First of all, it is definitely "allowed" by Jewish Law to serve God while not being Jewish at all.
The seven Noachide Laws are, according to the Talmud, laws that were given to the children of Noah (ie: all of humanity).
These are the laws:

No idolatry.
No murder.
No theft.
No sexual immorality.
No blasphemy.
No eating of flesh taken from a live animal.
It is required to establish courts of justice

These laws have been discussed and argued over as having given birth to another branch of "sub" laws.
One example is that Maimonides says that abortion would be part of murder.

 

[Levite]

First of all, it is definitely "allowed" by Jewish Law to serve God while not being Jewish at all.
The seven Noachide Laws are, according to the Talmud, laws that were given to the children of Noah (ie: all of humanity).
These are the laws:

No idolatry.
No murder.
No theft.
No sexual immorality.
No blasphemy.
No eating of flesh taken from a live animal.
It is required to establish courts of justice

These laws have been discussed and argued over as having given birth to another branch of "sub" laws.
One example is that Maimonides says that abortion would be part of murder.

It's worth noting, given that this is the Conservative DIR, that most Conservative authorities don't presume any literal expectation that non-Jews observe these seven laws precisely as formulated-- much less any "sub-laws" derived from them (including abortion, which most Conservative authorities permit under many circumstances).

Many-- though not all-- in Conservative Judaism tend to presume that non-Jews can and should serve God in their own ways by establishing just societies and encouraging ethical behavior and morality, and, ideally, embracing or evolving toward monotheism. We regard the seven Noachide laws as midrash representing some illustrative guidelines of what we mean by establishing just societies, etc., rather than literal commandments to which non-Jews are specifically bound.

 

[SpentaMaynu]

First of all, it is definitely "allowed" by Jewish Law to serve God while not being Jewish at all.

Thanks for explaining. If Christians allowed that, I might have considered staying a Christian. But, because of the fact that I were raised Christian, I don't understand how this can work. Of course it is my current believe that all who serve God in whichever way He/She/It shows Himself to us (meaning anyone in any religion) is doing the right thing. What I don't understand is how this can be true from a Jewish perspective (as I know it won't work from a Christian perspective).

 

[Akivah]

It works because G-d said so. The Noahide Laws were given to all humankind, not just Jews. Noah wasn't Jewish, yet he and his family didn't perish in the flood. The seven laws (categories actually) that dantech listed in post #17 have nothing to do with Judaism.