Do humans have a spirit?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The Hebrew word for "spirit" in this verse means breath. That's all. Just like "soul" means a living, breathing frame or person, someone who is alive. We are not given a soul, we are a soul. Same with spirit. Spirit, like soul, can also be written in many different ways. But never something that is given us. Spirit can also be written as mind or a way of thinking too.

I very much like what you've written. I have always found odd the notion that there is some "part of me" which is also in some unexplained way "not part of me" -- -- that is, that will not participate in that final stage of my life. My death. Even though it does not seem to have participated in anything before the first stage of my life.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Not only the prophets but His angelic messengers also communicate His word.

What is an angelic messenger, a man or woman with wings of eagles? That's possible only in Greek Mythology. Among us, only in dreams and visions or in allegorical literature.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jerusalem doesn't always mean Judah. Jerusalem is a city, Judah is not. Neither is Jerusalem a nation (goy), as is Israel. Once again, you are performing logical somersaults in order to justify your no resurrection belief.

Okay, instead of performing logical somersaults, read the following texts: Perhaps you will find easier to take it from the Tanach directly than through me.: II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. These texts reveal to me that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. But hey! I understand that you are not bound by the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach but the gospel of Paul aka the NT. So, don't forget to read II Timothy 2:8. Paul himself confessed that Jesus resurrected according to his, Paul's gospel. So, Paul was the one who fabricated the idea of the resurrection.

 

[james2ko]

Okay, instead of performing logical somersaults, read the following texts: Perhaps you will find easier to take it from the Tanach directly than through me.: II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. These texts reveal to me that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. But hey! I understand that you are not bound by the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach but the gospel of Paul aka the NT. So, don't forget to read II Timothy 2:8. Paul himself confessed that Jesus resurrected according to his, Paul's gospel. So, Paul was the one who fabricated the idea of the resurrection.

Repeating passages that I've demonstrated you have taken out of context or misinterpreted does not help your doctrine. But hey, if you are reading only half the book, chapter, or thought, I can see how that can happen.

 

[james2ko]

What is an angelic messenger, a man or woman with wings of eagles? That's possible only in Greek Mythology. Among us, only in dreams and visions or in allegorical literature.

That's right, which refutes your point that the word is only transmitted through His prophets.

​

 

[Ben Avraham]

That's right, which refutes your point that the word is only transmitted through His prophets.

You are totally wrong because the prophets got their revelations from God only through dreams and visions if you read Number 12:6. They never literally saw anything.

​

 

[Ben Avraham]

Repeating passages that I've demonstrated you have taken out of context or misinterpreted does not help your doctrine. But hey, if you are reading only half the book, chapter, or thought, I can see how that can happen.

Really! How that can happen?

 

[james2ko]

You are totally wrong because the prophets got their revelations from God only through dreams and visions if you read Number 12:6. They never literally saw anything.

Not only do you read out of context, but youve added contradiction to your interpretive repertoire . How can one not literally see anything in a vision??

 

[Ben Avraham]

The Similarities between Dreams and Visions.

Dreams and visions. They are very closely related. "And our old men will have dreams; and our young will have visions." (Joel 2:28) But these are dreams and visions in the metaphorical meaning of ideals and intellectual development.

Normal dreams occur when we are deeply sleeping. And everyone dreams; and we dream every time we are asleep. Many think they don't, because 75 percent of dreams are forgotten as we wake up.

What is the difference between dreams and visions? To dream, everyone does, although only 25 percent remember to have dreamed. To have a vision, one must be self-trained to be in control of the dream, which will then become a lucid dream. The ancient Israelite Prophets were pretty good experts at it.

Visions are known as lucid dreams, and they occur during that period of transition between deep sleep and the awaken state. But they mostly happen during a slumber,
as we take a rest and can't fall asleep because of preoccupations about what has been happening to us or to our significant ones.

A classical example of the above, we have in Abraham, when soon after his circumcision, he tried to rest at the entrance of his tent under the shade of a large tree to take advantage of the fresh breeze in the heat of the day. (Gen. 18:1,2) He could not stop worrying about Sarah's barren condition, albeit God's promise of a son. He would worry also about his nephew Lot in Sodom in the middle of corruption. Thus, he slumbered and had a lucid dream or vision, which he, almost involuntarily would control it into his understanding through his imaginations as how things would take a turn either this or that way. Then, he saw in his lucid dream/vision the Divine confirmation of the promise, and even Sarah laughing from her tent at the idea of giving birth to a child as the old woman that she was. (Gen. 18:12)

Then, in the same lucid dream/vision, he would change scenery as his imagination went from Sarah to Lot in Sodom. Then, he would dialog with Divine emanations in the human forms of messengers who would speak with him on behalf of God about His promised heir and about Sodom. (Gen. 18:16-32)

The same thing happened with Ezekiel, the Prophet when he was in Babylon at the end of the exile. He would worry about Israel and the imminent return. In his vision he would be lifted up in the air and transported to Israel, where what he would deal with, was so virtual that an unskilled reader would bet he was actually in Israel. (Ezek. 8:1) The truth is that he never actually left Babylon. It had been all in the lucidity of his imaginations.

The Prophets had rich imaginations which they would use during lucid dreams or visions in order to find solutions and sound advices to kings or people in charge of the Governments of nations. I am not ruling out here the Divine intervention, but through emanations in the minds of the Prophets or even in some of the common people.

Now, during dreams, lucid dreams or visions, everything is possible, even to see God and live. In fact, some Prophets thought they would die because of the intensity with which they would self-induce themselves into believing that they really had seen God, when everything had occurred during a lucid dream or vision. (Isa. 1:1; 2:1; 6:5)

Of course, the imagination functions according to the mental or religious orientation
of the dreamer or visionary.

Now, I woud like to welcome any comments.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Not only do you read out of context, but youve added contradiction to your interpretive repertoire . How can one not literally see anything in a vision??

Not only do you read out of context, but youve added contradiction to your interpretive repertoire . How can one not literally see anything in a vision??

We can see any thing and every thing in a dream of vision but nothing is to be taken literally. Read Numbers 12:6.

 

[james2ko]

Dreams and visions. They are very closely related. "And our old men will have dreams; and our young will have visions." (Joel 2:28) But these are dreams and visions in the metaphorical meaning of ideals and intellectual development.

Normal dreams occur when we are deeply sleeping. And everyone dreams; and we dream every time we are asleep. Many think they don't, because 75 percent of dreams are forgotten as we wake up.

What is the difference between dreams and visions? To dream, everyone does, although only 25 percent remember to have dreamed.To have a vision, one must be self-trained to be in control of the dream, which will then become a lucid dream. The ancient Israelite Prophets were pretty good experts at it.

Visions are known as lucid dreams, and they occur during that period of transition between deep sleep and the awaken state. But they mostly happen during a slumber, as we take a rest and can't fall asleep because of preoccupations about what has been happening to us or to our significant ones.

A classical example of the above, we have in Abraham, when soon after his circumcision, he tried to rest at the entrance of his tent under the shade of a large tree to take advantage of the fresh breeze in the heat of the day. (Gen. 18:1,2) He could not stop worrying about Sarah's barren condition, albeit God's promise of a son. He would worry also about his nephew Lot in Sodom in the middle of corruption. Thus, he slumbered and had a lucid dream or vision, which he, almost involuntarily would control it into his understanding through his imaginations as how things would take a turn either this or that way. Then, he saw in his lucid dream/vision the Divine confirmation of the promise, and even Sarah laughing from her tent at the idea of giving birth to a child as the old woman that she was. (Gen. 18:12)

Then, in the same lucid dream/vision, he would change scenery as his imagination went from Sarah to Lot in Sodom. Then, he would dialog with Divine emanations in the human forms of messengers who would speak with him on behalf of God about His promised heir and about Sodom. (Gen. 18:16-32)

1 Gen 18:1 states Abraham sat (yashab) under the tent door . You are "assuming" he was in a some sort of sleep state. Nothing in Gen 18 states Abraham was dreaming (khalome) or that this was a vision (machazeh/mareh). Three messengers, representing YHVH, literally appeared to Abraham. We know he was wide awake because he engaged in interactive, hands-on activities like washing their feet, preparing a calf, which took lots of work, attention, and time. This was only possible if wide awake. We should not add to the word of God which takes away from its true meaning (Deu 12:32).

The same thing happened with Ezekiel, the Prophet when he was in Babylon at the end of the exile. He would worry about Israel and the imminent return. In his vision he would be lifted up in the air and transported to Israel, where what he would deal with, was so virtual that an unskilled reader would bet he was actually in Israel. (Ezek. 8:1) The truth is that he never actually left Babylon. It had been all in the lucidity of his imaginations.

2 No. The same thing did not happen to Ezekiel as did Abraham in Gen 18. The text explicitly states Ezekiel experienced visions (Eze 8:3). No such designation is recorded for Abraham's encounter unless one adds to the text.

The Prophets had rich imaginations which they would use during lucid dreams or visions in order to find solutions and sound advices to kings or people in charge of the Governments of nations. I am not ruling out here the Divine intervention, but through emanations in the minds of the Prophets or even in some of the common people.

Now, during dreams, lucid dreams or visions, everything is possible, even to see God and live. In fact, some Prophets thought they would die because of the intensity with which they would self-induce themselves into believing that they really had seen God, when everything had occurred during a lucid dream or vision. (Isa. 1:1; 2:1; 6:5)

Of course, the imagination functions according to the mental or religious orientation of the dreamer or visionary. Now, I would like to welcome any comments

3 None of the prophets actually saw God's face. As you stated, they would die if they did. They saw and experienced the faces of His heavenly representatives who sometimes took on His name--YHVH (Exo 23:21). Thus neither Abraham nor any of the prophets personally saw the Supreme YHVH. This means that in Gen 18 Abraham could have certainly interacted with YHVH's representatives outside of a vision or dream, bringing into question the validity of your very long reply..

We can see any thing and every thing in a dream of vision but nothing is to be taken literally. Read Numbers 12:6.

4 The definition of literal is something in its basic form without metaphor or allegory. Everything the prophets saw in a dream or vision was not allegory or metaphor, it was real --literal--during the vision or dream.



BTW.. Did you formerly go by the forum name of Ben Masada?

 

[Ben Avraham]

1 Gen 18:1 states Abraham sat (yashab) under the tent door . You are "assuming" he was in a some sort of sleep state. Nothing in Gen 18 states Abraham was dreaming (khalome) or that this was a vision (machazeh/mareh). Three messengers, representing YHVH, literally appeared to Abraham. We know he was wide awake because he engaged in interactive, hands-on activities like washing their feet, preparing a calf, which took lots of work, attention, and time. This was only possible if wide awake. We should not add to the word of God which takes away from its true meaning (Deu 12:32).

No, I am assuming nothing. Read Numbers 12:6 and you will figure for yourself that Abraham was having a dream.

2 No. The same thing did not happen to Ezekiel as did Abraham in Gen 18. The text explicitly states Ezekiel experienced visions (Eze 8:3). No such designation is recorded for Abraham's encounter unless one adds to the text.

Was Abraham a Prophet of the Lord or was he not? Yes, he was. So, it was a dream he was having.

3 None of the prophets actually saw God's face. As you stated, they would die if they did. They saw and experienced the faces of His heavenly representatives who sometimes took on His name--YHVH (Exo 23:21). Thus neither Abraham nor any of the prophets personally saw the Supreme YHVH. This means that in Gen 18 Abraham could have certainly interacted with YHVH's representatives outside of a vision or dream, bringing into question the validity of your very long reply..

Very good! Neither Abraham no any of the prophets personally saw HaShem. So, what's the problem?

The definition of literal is something in its basic form without metaphor or allegory. Everything the prophets saw in a dream or vision was not allegory or metaphor, it was real --literal--during the vision or dream.

Not only the prophets, but even yourself could see the Almighty in a dream if He allowed you to. In a dream even a cow can fly.

 

[james2ko]

No, I am assuming nothing[/b][/u]. Read Numbers 12:6 and you will figure for yourself that Abraham was having a dream.

1 I'm afraid you are. Numbers 12:6 states, "If there be there a prophet among you (Israel)". Abraham was not an Israelite. If God meant "all" prophets, past, present, and future, Israelite or non-Israelite, He would have said, "If there be 'any' prophet...", like He inspired the Psalmist to write in Psalms 74:9.

We do not see our signs; There is no longer any prophet; Nor is there any among us who knows how long.​

Notice how there are two classification of prophets--those not of Israel (any) and those of Israel (among us) . Abraham would be considered the former. Therefore, Numbers 12:6 did not directly apply to him!

Was Abraham a Prophet of the Lord or was he not? Yes, he was. So, it was a dream he was having.

2 Yes. But he was not part of the prophets spoken of in Numbers 12:6, as evidenced in point one.

Very good! Neither Abraham no any of the prophets personally saw HaShem. So, what's the problem?

3 The problem is you claim his encounter was a vision or dream when it is evident from the text and the laborious work involved throughout his encounter that it was neither.

Not only the prophets, but even yourself could see the Almighty in a dream if He allowed you to. In a dream even a cow can fly.

4 Very good! So you admit the things seen in a dream or vision can be literal. So, what's the probelm?

BTW. You avoided the only question I asked in my last post--Did you formerly go by the name of Ben Masada?

 

[Muffled]

Some translations use the word "spirit" rather than "breath" in Eccl. 3:19
The spirit or life force is sustained by breathing, IMO.

Then how do yo explain this verse?:
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

No one has ever shown that a spirit existed, we have all sorts of stories, and that is all they are, stories.

We measure the spirit by the same way we measure the wind. We measure the wind by the effects it has on a flywheel ie the wind pushes the wings and the flywheel moves. The spirit is measured by the effect it has on people.

 

[Ben Avraham]

1 I'm afraid you are. Numbers 12:6 states, "If there be there a prophet among you (Israel)". Abraham was not an Israelite. If God meant "all" prophets, past, present, and future, Israelite or non-Israelite, He would have said, "If there be 'any' prophet...", like He inspired the Psalmist to write in Psalms 74:9.

We do not see our signs; There is no longer any prophet; Nor is there any among us who knows how long.​

Notice how there are two classification of prophets--those not of Israel (any) and those of Israel (among us) . Abraham would be considered the former. Therefore, Numbers 12:6 did not directly apply to him!

2 Yes. But he was not part of the prophets spoken of in Numbers 12:6, as evidenced in point one.

3 The problem is you claim his encounter was a vision or dream when it is evident from the text and the laborious work involved throughout his encounter that it was neither.

4 Very good! So you admit the things seen in a dream or vision can be literal. So, what's the probelm?

BTW. You avoided the only question I asked in my last post--Did you formerly go by the name of Ben Masada?

Yes, but we have more important things to discuss than to get into personal concerns. BTW, Abraham is considered
in the Talmud to have been the founder of Judaism. And, let me add here that he was a prophet who would very often
speak with the Lord in prophetic dreams.

 

[james2ko]

Yes, but we have more important things to discuss than to get into personal concerns. BTW, Abraham is considered in the Talmud to have been the founder of Judaism. And, let me add here that he was a prophet who would very often speak with the Lord in prophetic dreams.

So you are Ben Masada. Why not just keep your old identity? The Talmud is nothing more than a great commentary absent of canonical value to followers of Christ. The Tanach is my authority. YHVH did appear to Abraham in visions (Gen 15:1), But he also interacted with His representatives outside of a vision or dream (Gen 18).

 

[Ben Avraham]

So you are Ben Masada. Why not just keep your old identity? The Talmud is nothing more than a great commentary absent of canonical value to followers of Christ. The Tanach is my authority. YHVH did appear to Abraham in visions (Gen 15:1), But he also interacted with His representatives outside of a vision or dream (Gen 18).

Okay! Where in Genesis 18 did HaShem interact with His representatives outside of a vision or dream? Mind to complete the quote?

 

[Ben Avraham]

1 I'm afraid you are. Numbers 12:6 states, "If there be there a prophet among you (Israel)". Abraham was not an Israelite. If God meant "all" prophets, past, present, and future, Israelite or non-Israelite, He would have said, "If there be 'any' prophet...", like He inspired the Psalmist to write in Psalms 74:9. We do not see our signs; There is no longer any prophet; Nor is there any among us who knows how long.

The prophetic system in Israel ceased to exist with the New Jewish World Order aka the New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. (Jeremiah 31:31; Daniel 9:24)

Notice how there are two classification of prophets--those not of Israel (any) and those of Israel (among us) . Abraham would be considered the former. Therefore, Numbers 12:6 did not directly apply to him!

All the legitimate prophets in the Tanach were of the same kind; hence included in the Number 12:6.

The problem is you claim his encounter was a vision or dream when it is evident from the text and the laborious work involved throughout his encounter that it was neither.

I claim nothing. I simply read what is written in the Tanach.

Very good! So you admit the things seen in a dream or vision can be literal. So, what's the probelm?

Yes, but literal in the dream, not in reality as if the Lord was there speaking to them face-to-face.

 

[james2ko]

Okay! Where in Genesis 18 did HaShem interact with His representatives outside of a vision or dream? Mind to complete the quote?

1 I quoted the whole chapter (Gen 18). Read the chapter. Nowhere does it state he was dreaming or experiencing a vision. You are assuming he did, therefore adding that important detail to the text. Preparing a calf itself is reason enough to eliminate any dream or vision.

The prophetic system in Israel ceased to exist with the New Jewish World Order aka the New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. (Jeremiah 31:31; Daniel 9:24)

2 Have you not read your own Tanach? (In the NT, Jesus said something similar to the Pharisees ). Prophets will still exist in Israel during the New Covenant period:

Joe 2:27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame.
Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.​

All the legitimate prophets in the Tanach were of the same kind; hence included in the Number 12:6.

3 Yeah and all grass is purple. We can claim anything. Contextually proving your claims from the evidence of "all" the scriptures on a topic is where credibility is earned.

I claim nothing. I simply read what is written in the Tanach

.

4 Im not so sure you even read what is written (see point 2) . Even when you do read what is written, it is read out of context and you add to the text, as has been exposed for all to see in my previous posts.

Yes, but literal in the dream, not in reality as if the Lord was there speaking to them face-to-face.

5 Oh so now its literal in a dream, when before it was not literal at all? Your inconsistency is duly noted. Unfortunately for you ,it matches your interpretive method. Shalom