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Featured Do humans contruct the truth or find the truth, or partake in making it with dieties

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Nov 18, 2019.

?
  1. they construct it

    1 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. they find it

    9 vote(s)
    81.8%
  3. they partake in making it with a god or gods, or external human forces of some kind

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    So I'll argue, perhaps weakly, that they construct it. They are given the pieces to make truth, through merit of the fact that they can put forth ideas that really work. Words and concepts can be put forward that people believe in, that give them purpose and fulfillment. That seems to be the truth for all intents and purposes, as far as we can know. It also is a quality of real respect between people, to allow each of them to subscribe to what they decide is truth.

    It could also be that we partake in making truth, just as the biblical god allows adam to name animals.

    But if you think we find the truth, then we probably have no role in making the truth. It also might be possible, if the truth needs finding, that it cannot even really be apprehended by humans. It also would mean that some people believe in false truth, which may lead to a lack of respect between people. If the truth is hard to comprehend, it might also only be understood by a select few, so this introduces power into the equation.

    So how does the truth come to us. Through our own hands, or through the hands of other forces, or is it a collaboration of some kind.
     
    #1 ideogenous_mover, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  2. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Hello. Good topic!

    I think truth is always there whether scientific or spiritual for us to discover.
    As humanity has evolved we’ve discovered more and more truth about all the sciences and things like the human body.

    We do try to make up truth like claiming the world was flat or that the sky was a roof. However as our capacity develops we are able to discover and unfold the mysteries of the universe that were always there. Gravity was always there but now we have discovered how it operates we can use it to our own advantage and even fly planes.

    How much is left to know? So in the meantime to try and explain the things we don’t know or the truths we haven’t discovered yet we second guess and make it up with things like theories, suppositions and conjectures. Then when we discover a truth these theories are tested and discarded.

    Regards
     
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  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The first thing to get clear is, what are we actually talking about? That's to say, what definition of 'truth' are we using?

    I use the 'correspondence' definition: truth is a quality of statements about reality, and a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality. (There are, however, no absolute truths.)

    What definition do you have in mind? What test do you use to see whether a statement is true or not?
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Truth is established when we remove all the fallacies from a subject; most never find anything that remotely resembles it, as they look for truth, not fallacies.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Here goes. You ready? I believe no human is capable of defining truth but only an All Knowing God can do that so this is what I believe about truth in this statement because it makes a lot of sense to me.

    “While it may often be the part of wisdom to approach individuals or an audience from a standpoint of current knowledge, it should never be overlooked that the Revelation of the Manifestation of God is the standard for all knowledge, and scientific statements and theories, no matter how close they may come to the eternal principles proclaimed by God’s Messenger, are in their very nature ephemeral and limited.” (Universal House of Justice, Scholarship, p. 37)
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the clarification.

    So you're saying the test for truth is, Sounds good to me!, hein?

    Then that answers your OP question. In your view the concept of truth can't be held to an objective standard, so everyone's free to make up their own.

    (I prefer the definition I gave before since at least that way 'truth' is a meaningful concept, derived from a standard as objective as we can make it.)
     
  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I don’t think that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying only a Perfect Being can define truth 100% accurately. Human finite minds are limited and error prone while the Divine Mind is All Knowing.

    Of course everyone makes up his own mind because thought is free but human beings are incapable of infallible knowledge while the Divine has perfect knowledge of all things which He sends to us from age to age through Prophets or Messengers.
     
  8. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    there it is....
    you are seeking a balance

    and many participants here insist on their numbers
    if you can't use numbers to show the truth
    then you don't have the truth

    but I, like several others
    use thought experiments

    I use possible scenarios

    I believe the truth can be had without having to suffer pain and misery to see it

    look ahead
    yes you can

    at times it may seem you are using too much imagination

    but maybe not
     
    #8 Thief, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  9. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Why can't all three options be true? There are multiple levels of reality.
     
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  10. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    That's what I voted, in part for that reason but largely because the meaning of "truth" was left ambiguous by the opening poster. Though frankly even if the word "truth" (largely constructed) was replaced with "fact" (largely objective) I would have still voted what I did.

    Whether truth or fact, human partake in making it because they are part of the world. Human behavior alters the world, and as such, they construct both truth and fact through their interactions with the world. At the same time, they discover it or "find it" as the OP frames it while interacting with the world as well. And since I'm a Pagan who understands the world and the gods to be one and the same, the gods are necessarily involved in all this too.

     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But surely a direct consequence of that view is that humans have no access to truth within themselves, have no objective test they can apply to any given statement, are incapable of correctly identifying truth (hence falsity) when they see or hear it, have no insight into the concept that could make the word meaningful?
    What does infallibility matter? I said before that there are no absolute truths, that's to say, no statements about reality that are correct in any absolute sense. But using my definition, that doesn't make the concept of truth meaningless, whereas yours must, no?
    I don't see how that can work either.

    First, we have no way of distinguishing a true 'prophet' or 'messenger' from a false one (except your wholly arbitrary and subjective "I like it!" test).

    Second, even if there were some objective way to verify the messenger's status, in your view we have no objective test for truth, so even then we have no way of telling whether the messenger delivers the message correctly or not.

    Third, what in your view is an example of an absolute truth uttered by a messenger? There aren't any, are there?
     
  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    It depends on ones concept of a human being. Are we just animals or something far greater? In my belief we are spiritual beings inhabiting a physical body. Just like the body has physical eyes and ears to see and hear with so the spiritual nature of man has the innate ability to perceive and understand truth and things like the signs of God in the world and the Holy Spirit when it is manifested in a Messenger or Prophet and these abilities do not rely on human knowledge and learning. That’s why the Pharisees who were highly educated, failed to recognise Jesus spiritual reality yet simple unlettered fishermen recognised Him.

    The problem with the spiritual side of man is it’s like a mirror. If it is directed at earthly things it will become informed of earthly realities but if it is directed towards spiritual things it will come to know of them. But in order for our souls to see truth it’s like a mirror that in order to reflect the sun must be clean and pure otherwise a mirror which is covered with grime and dirt and doesn’t very well. That’s what Christ meant when He said the “pure in heart shall see God”

    So we have been endowed with an innate ability to ‘recognise ‘ the Holy Spirit when it appears through a Messenger or Prophet if our hearts are pure. But it’s law is ‘seek and you shall find’ so you cannot reap the rewards of my search. If you don’t search humbly you will find nothing. It is not permitted for me to ‘convince ‘ you as you must reap the reward of what you sow not what I do. You get your wages for your own work not mine. Which is why no matter how long we discuss I am not permitted and unable to convince you because then you would know with my mind and not your own and that would be blind imitation.

    All the Words of the Holy Manifestations are absolute truth in that their Words are mother Words that are creative so they are called the Creative Word of God. They contain an invisible, unseen power I believe.

    For example. Baha’u’llah said over a century ago before world communications and technological advances that ‘ the earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’.
    Now what if technological advances never occurred? No planes, international communications or travel? How could the earth possibly become one neighbourhood? But these creative Words, I believe, and Baha’u’llah stated it too, gave birth to the sciences required to fulfil the meaning of the Words.

    Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God is endowed with such potency as can instill new life into every human frame, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.

    All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days to come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have never heard before. Thus hath it been decreed in the Tablets of God, and none can comprehend it except them whose sight is sharp. In like manner, the moment the word expressing My attribute “The Omniscient” issueth forth from My mouth, every created thing will, according to its capacity and limitations, be invested with the power to unfold the knowledge of the most marvelous sciences, and will be empowered to manifest them in the course of time at the bidding of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

    The Manifestations of God possess absolute truth. Their Words are eternal truths not just for a short period. That us why today we see followers of Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, and Zoroaster that although They appeared thousands of years ago Their Words continually give spiritual strength to billions.






     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    We've evolved to be gregarious primates with unusually large brains relative to our body size. Or as the Tanakh says:
    Ecclesiastes 3:
    18 I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should enjoy his work, for that is his lot; who can bring him to see what will be after him?​
    That would make a lot more sense if we could agree on what a prophet is, and who's a prophet. For example, was Gautama Buddha a prophet? Is Pat Robertson? Are you?

    And it doesn't do away with the need for an objective test for truth. If God is sending statements to humanity via humans, "I'm a genuine God-sent prophet / messenger" (or, "he's a genuine God-sent prophet/messenger") is a claim that a particular state of affairs exists in reality, and so in principle can be demonstrated to be correct ('true') or not like any other fact.

    And as I said, even were that to be satisfactorily shown to be correct, the problem would remain as to whether the messenger has accurately rendered the message entrusted to him or not. That would apply to real matters. (As to spiritual claims, unless and until they can be distinguished from imaginary matters, they can and will be anything the speaker or the hearer wants them to be.)
    With respect, that's very unfair to the Pharisees. The NT Jesus was not anointed by the priesthood (which is what 'messiah' and 'Christos' mean), nor a war-leader or high priest, and, given that he existed in history at all, features in not a single contemporary record. Since Jesus had zero qualifications to be a messiah, what error did the Pharisees make?
    No, this is an ocean without compass or even horizon; the only guide is "I like it!" ─ as clearly reflected in the literally thousands of versions of Christianity, and a great many in Islam, and in Buddhism, and an almost boastful exuberance of varieties in Hinduism.

    If there was 'truth' to be found out there, we could all check it out and agree what the particular truth in question is. But as you know, nothing of the kind happens and instead we see the opposite.
    But first of all, who's to say that the statement is correct? What exactly are the words that proceed out of the mouth of God? Who says so?
    What definition of "truth" is being used in that sentence? Is it a meaningful definition, so that everyone who applies that test will get the same answer?

    Or is "I like it!" the only test here?


    And I'm still interested to hear an example of absolute truth from you. You assert such things exist, but I've never found one, and accordingly I hope you'll enlighten me.
     
    #13 blü 2, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Agreement on a Prophet I believe has nothing to do with the validity of the Prophet.

    Just as we require physical sight to see the sun in the sky so too do we require spiritual insight to perceive the Suns of Truth. If our physical or spiritual sight is impaired no matter how much we hypothesise we will not see the light emanating from these Suns so those with sight and those who’s sight is impaired will understandably disagree while the Sun both physical and Spiritual shines brightly independent of the condition of our sight or perception.

    So those with spiritual perception see clearly the Suns of Truth while those who’s vision is impaired insist the sun does not exist. Even as it is said.

    ‘Even as the sun bright has He shined but alas He has come to the town of the blind.

    Billions of people on earth bear witness with healthy spiritual sight to the Suns of Truth Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Moses, Christ and Zoroaster but those who’s spiritual sight is impaired by the dross of worldliness contend there is no Sun of Truth for in their condition they are incapable of spiritual sight.

    Once ones spiritual vision is healthy, like physical vision, the sun stands out with undeniable light and brilliance and is in no need of proof for it is it’s own greatest proof.

    When spiritual sight perceives and is unimpaired it can see clearly the brilliant Light shining from the Suns of Truth and is in no need of arguments.
     
  15. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I mean those are good questions, but all signs that no one really explains life to us in this civilization or culture, or at least in mine, I don't know where you're from. Most saliently, your questions indicate that we largely assemble our notions of ontological impetus from various gray areas where different ideas appear to be, that say 'some assembly required' on the package.

    As one example, I went to a public school where no teachings about spirituality were allowed, and then my parents had religious ideas they wanted me to consider when I wasn't there. What's not really obvious, but seems to be implied, is that you should meld those things together, and have that be the truth that you're supposed to stand on.

    So what definitions could I use, other than ones that have to go down the assembly line conveyor belt, subject to tests and keen inspection. What are we talking about indeed
     
  16. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Given the difficulty you describe, are we even designed then, to even perceive it
     
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  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    In other words, your test for whether something is true or not is, "I like it!" or "I don't like it." Totally subjective, variable and arbitrary.
    But your test for whether someone has "spiritual perception" or not is whether they agree with you (or so it appears from your reply to @metis).
    Then it seems very odd that, though I've asked you twice, you're yet to show me even one example of an absolutely true statement.
     
  18. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, so then, do the dog-headed men have souls even if they originate from the seed of man? A question we should have long since returned to



    A principle problem grappled with by spinoza
     
  19. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean by the truth? are you suggesting that there is some sort of absolute truth?
     
  20. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    When in history did man first give it a qualifier? That person needs to be debated
     
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