Do differences in practices of faith mean we follow the same Jesus Christ?

[doppelganger]

All you need is LOVE!!! Love is seen in ACTION!!! Action causes our hearts to CHANGE!!!

Very well put, Pete. And this goes beyond saved/unsaved, theist/non-theist, East/West. The more I look at the differences between us, the more the mere act of looking makes those differences manifest in reality.

 

[Sola'lor]

So has the question of this thread been answered?

 

[sojourner]

but what i get from the parable of the talents is that of reaching your potential....

the one who did nothing with his talents got nothing in return while those who reached thier potential and exceeded the expectations were added upon even more.

"Where much is given much is required"

Think of dynamics. when a bow is drawn back, it is potential energy. When the bowstring is released, it's kinetic energy. when the servant buried his talent, that was potential. He had potential to do great things. But he did not. When the other servant invested his talents, he doubled his earnings. That's kinesis. The point I'm making is that God is interested, not in what we're capable of, but what we actually do with it.

 

[sojourner]

You have a way of playing with verses.

It's called exegesis -- the comparing and contrasting of similar texts in order to extrapolate meaning.

I Corinthians 4:9 is different from matthew 20:16

It's also similar in some significant ways -- ways that are cogent to the interpretation of the text at hand.

I Corinthians 4:9 is CLEARLY talking of ordinal of time, because Paul shouldn't have said "as it were appointed to death" if he was not talking of ordinal of time.

an example of one of the reasons why the KJV is no longer the best source to exegete.

Well just because most biblical scholars considered NSRV superior over KJV, do you think that would be enough to nullify KJV as a whole?

I don't nullify the KJV. It's just not the best translation anymore for exegetical research. The NRSV is much more faithful to the most ancient sources.

So you base your scholarship to commentaries?

In part. They're extremely helpful, because they take advantage of the best scholarship on ancient texts.

Information on which you think is accurate?

The commentaries I use are the most accurate sources of textual and historical criticism available to us.

The problem with you is your stuck with what you believe, that scriptures need's scholarship. And there is no biblical account that early christians need's scholarship. Or neither there was a hint that in latter time that you need one.

The earliest Christians relied upon the scholarship of their teachers. The NT wasn't written and compiled for some time, so there was no need for textual scholarship of the Gospels.
We rely on scholarship today, just as they did. We further rely on scholarship, because we are further removed both by virtue of time and distance from those early texts -- and from jesus and his culture.

Where did I assign meaning? I let scriptures answer for itself.

And you assign meaning to what you read -- otherwise, it would just be a jumble of meaningless symbols on a page.

That is why Pharisees and Saducees with there pride as high as heaven can not accept Jesus teaching because they knew who Jesus was, a carpenter.

And Sojourner is Pharisees in our own time.

Actually, some did recognize him and follow him.
Since a Pharisee is a member of an ancient, narrow, Judaic sect, your assessment of me is incorrect. In fact, there is ample Biblical evidence that Jesus liked the Pharisees, got along with them much of the time, and allowed them to join the ranks of those who followed him.

And you considered OPINION of biblical scholars as your belief?
What happen to your scholarship?

Scholarship builds on what came before. Scholarship informs my belief -- it is not, in and of itself, my belief.

And i thought you have that very little CLEAR evidence.

The evidence isn't entirely conslusive -- but it's better than the alternative.

And I think an opinion is not clear evidence.

Opinions do not provide evidence in this case. The absence of early ascription of the writings to the apostles is the evidence. Because of this evidence, we form opinions about the thing in question. Opinions vary. Most scholars dismiss apostolic authorship. Some do not.

Can they teach if they did not recieve the gift of grace?

Depends on what they're teaching.

Did they receive a scholarship or did they recieve grace to understand scriptures

They relied on prior scholarship and they received grace, which opened up wisdom to them.

Those who teach are they not under the grace which is given to them?

all are under grace.

Are you mocking early christian because they are under God's grace when they teach and prophesy?

No. Are you mocking them for utilizing the scholarship that was available to them?

And then here you are saying "one does not gain the ability to interpret magically, just because one is under salvific grace"

They did teach and prohesized under God's grace Sojourner, so what are you talking about magically interpreting. Answer me did they teach or not?

And they used the scholarship that was available to them. Just as many of us do. They taught, using the benefit of 1) their eyewitness of Jesus' ministry, 2) schoalstic interpretation of the written scripture, 3) the Tradition of the Jews, 4) wisdom brought by grace.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

I dont see scholarship there, do you?

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge -- it is not the corpus of knowledge. Fine. Begin there. We all do. Then we engage in further research and study.

And as for trusting so much for your scholarship,
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

You trust men by there opinions and commentaries and maketh flesh and arm, you do not trust God by saying grace is insufficient.

For you(Sojourner) One need's scholarship of men because you think one is not able to interpret magically just because they are under God's grace. In short grace is insufficient.

Curse be the man that trustheth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.

And you exactly fit right into it.:yes:

The Jeremiah text does not address the issue of Biblical scholarship. yet another example of why proof-texting does not work. You do the scriptures a disservice when you misquote them, like a tabloid journalist.

I do trust God. I trust, in part, that God has given me a brain and a means to use it, as well as the spiritual capacity to develop wisdom.

What are you afraid of? That if you engage in some scholarship, or accept the scholarship of others, you might find a deeper meaning and truth than you would have otherwise been made aware of? Or that, if you utilize some scholarship, that it might mean that you don't "trust God?" Spiritual understanding is not a purely individual thing. We are a community, and we share our gifts with the community. That means that some individuals might have a different take on spiritual matters than we do. That might mean that we can broaden our own perspective by learning from others. That might mean that we can help others learn by showing them a different perspective. I rather suspect that truth is far deeper than any one soul can plumb. We were created to need the help of others. That's what scholarship does.

Was Peter a scholar?

No. but he learned from the best...

Did he study to understand the words of God?

Yes he did. He learned at the feet of Jesus -- his Rabbi -- his Teacher. In other words: Scholarship.

Is he educated in the bible like the Pharisees and Saducees?

Probably not. But Jesus was. And Jesus educated him.

Pharisees and Saducees are scholar's of the scriptures. But did they come to the knowledge of truth?

some did.

Scholarship you say, you badly needed one especially your belittling God's grace.

I never "belittled" God's grace. I brought honor to it by engaging in further study, because I thought what grace had done for me was important enough to warrant some intellectual advancement in the subject.

Did you come to the knowledge of truth?:no:

Who died and elected you Dean of the College of Spiritual Truth?

Which is important, you fall into God's grace for understanding or scholarship of men to come to understanding?

Both!

No matter how many colleges and scholarship you have, If God won't make known his words to you, you will never come to the knowledge of truth.
Do you agree with this?

It's a moot question. God has made God's Word known to us.

That's it "MY definition of grace". At least I know why you have deviated from the truth.

Opinions vary. We all have to define terms and ideas, if we're going to use them.

Why do you have to make it so hard to understand,
They are under God's grace, they received it. And they did happen to teach and prophesy.

It cause them to teach and prophesized.

Scholarship is not needed when your under God's grace for understanding, and grace is sufficient enough to teach and prophesized.

Once again, you're forgetting that they did learn from a scholar, and that learning informed their ministry.

 

[sojourner]

Since when did you know what God's interest is?

And please answer the the question?

If one were to enrol in a college which is less in what ever standards as your college, will that person be insulting God for not having much money to afford your college sojourner?"

since I learned to spend time in prayer, be in community with other believers, work for the Kingdom, study the Bible and apply all of it to my spiritual formation.

I did answer the question. God is interested in our doing the best we can with what we have. That does not displease God.

 

[sojourner]

I think intelligence and scholarship are GREAT... but it's not what Christianity was built upon. All too often those who claim to be Christian forget the incredible role the Spirit plays in our understanding of God's will.

You can study the scriptures all you want and never get closer to understanding what they really mean UNTIL you put them into action in your life. You can't understand the command to love your neighbor until you get in the trenches and DO IT. There will be no further revelations by the Spirit about what a particular scripture means until you LIVE IT.

Hebrews 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. NIV

Hebrews 6:10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. NIV

All you need is LOVE!!! Love is seen in ACTION!!! Action causes our hearts to CHANGE!!!

That's great! I love it! You have a wonderful understanding of what it means to be a follower. The problem is, that some folks don't understand your first sentence. Instead, they think that all they need is to "read the Bible" and come to some sort of misguided intellectualism, based upon nothing but their own vapid thoughts. That's where scholarship comes in handy. As I said, wisdom is the end we have in mind. Scholarship is one tool we can use to help us get there.

 

[doppelganger]

That's where scholarship comes in handy. As I said, wisdom is the end we have in mind. Scholarship is one tool we can use to help us get there.

Personally, I think the Spirit gets us there. Scholarship gets in the way in my experience. Everyone who gets tangled in the nuances of the written code does so in an effort to find the truth someplace other than the mystery of Christ within.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Personally, I think the Spirit gets us there. Scholarship gets in the way in my experience. Everyone who gets tangled in the nuances of the written code does so in an effort to find the truth someplace other than the mystery of Christ within.

:cover::foot::ignore:

 

[doppelganger]

:cover::foot::ignore:

Care to elaborate?

Scholarship is fine for the purposes that scholarship has the tools to achieve. Spiritual/psychological truths aren't one of those purposes.

 

[sojourner]

Care to elaborate?

Scholarship is fine for the purposes that scholarship has the tools to achieve. Spiritual/psychological truths aren't one of those purposes.

Except when the basic cornerstone of our truth is contained in and informed by an ancient collection of even more ancient writings -- some of even more ancient oral accounts. Then scholarship is very useful in helping us to understand just what those ancient writers were trying to tell us about truth.

 

[doppelganger]

Except when the basic cornerstone of our truth is contained in and informed by an ancient collection of even more ancient writings

Perhaps you only think it is. How would you even recognize it as "truth" if the truth weren't already something you possess? And if you do possess it, why can't you give up living by the written code and instead live by the truth within you that recognizes it in what you read in ancient books?

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps you only think it is. How would you even recognize it as "truth" if the truth weren't already something you possess? And if you do possess it, why can't you give up living by the written code and instead live by the truth within you that recognizes it in what you read in ancient books?

Perhaps I, and every other Christian who comprise the Body of Christ, believe it is! We recognize it as truth, because it resonates with that part of God that is already in us -- we were created good, after all. We do possess it, and that's precisely why we don't give up living by it. The scriptures are so deeply layered with truth that we could embrace the Bible for several lifetimes and still not garner everything it has to offer us, as well as read and say again and again the things that are truth, that bear repeating.

 

[doppelganger]

Perhaps I, and every other Christian who comprise the Body of Christ, believe it is!

Well then it should be read as the same truth every time, right? So why do you have a dozen lengthy threads going on with different "Christians" arguing about the "truth" that is so self-evident in the words of the Bible?

Perhaps the truth is an experience rather than strings of words.

 

[sojourner]

Well then it should be read as the same truth every time, right? So why do you have a dozen lengthy threads going on with different "Christians" arguing about the "truth" that is so self-evident in the words of the Bible?

Perhaps the truth is an experience rather than strings of words.

Maybe we should all just sit around and stare vapidly at our computer monitors, just "dwelling on the truthy-goodness." But then, we wouldn't have a forum, would we? Maybe we should all just sit at home in our closets and bask in that truthy-goodness. But then, we wouldn't have a community, would we?

We assign words to concepts so we can talk about them with each other. Different aspects, or perspectives of truth are still truth. it's precisely the sharing of them that helps us to grow. I suggest that it's not the differences, themselves, that are counter productive, but the attachments we place upon any particular POV, juxtaposed against those of others.

 

[madhatter85]

Think of dynamics. when a bow is drawn back, it is potential energy. When the bowstring is released, it's kinetic energy. when the servant buried his talent, that was potential. He had potential to do great things. But he did not. When the other servant invested his talents, he doubled his earnings. That's kinesis. The point I'm making is that God is interested, not in what we're capable of, but what we actually do with it.

umm, doing something means achieveing potential. buring means to be stagnant.

 

[sojourner]

umm, doing something means achieveing potential. buring means to be stagnant.

Umm, "doing something" means putting the potential into action. "Potential" means unreleased action.

 

[doppelganger]

Maybe we should all just sit around and stare vapidly at our computer monitors, just "dwelling on the truthy-goodness." But then, we wouldn't have a forum, would we? Maybe we should all just sit at home in our closets and bask in that truthy-goodness. But then, we wouldn't have a community, would we?

Why not? I find it curious that you think there can be no discussion unless everyone is sure they are each right.

Of course, we could also arbitrarily decide which combination of words is the "truth" and then pompously proclaim that all who don't accept it are not part of the "body of Christ". Or argue about it ceaselessly. That's a good solution, too. :yes:

We assign words to concepts so we can talk about them with each other. Different aspects, or perspectives of truth are still truth. it's precisely the sharing of them that helps us to grow. I suggest that it's not the differences, themselves, that are counter productive, but the attachments we place upon any particular POV, juxtaposed against those of others.

Sure it does . . . provided I'm not so sure that my string of words is so true that I can't even listen to another POV. Ever notice how arguments in which neither side knows anything about what they hell they are arguing about never seem to go anywhere?

That's certainly your prerogative. But I'm not surprised at the results.

 

[Scuba Pete]

That's great! I love it! You have a wonderful understanding of what it means to be a follower. The problem is, that some folks don't understand your first sentence. Instead, they think that all they need is to "read the Bible" and come to some sort of misguided intellectualism, based upon nothing but their own vapid thoughts. That's where scholarship comes in handy. As I said, wisdom is the end we have in mind. Scholarship is one tool we can use to help us get there.

For a scholar you sure missed the point on that one!

THE SPIRIT will guide us into understanding. The more you ACT on what the Spirit reveals, the more you will UNDERSTAND how to ACT. It has very little to do with Scholarship and EVERYTHING to do with the state of your heart.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Speaking of the un-importance of knowledge in the grander scheme of things...
I Corinthians 8:1 We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God. NIV

 

[sojourner]

For a scholar you sure missed the point on that one!

THE SPIRIT will guide us into understanding. The more you ACT on what the Spirit reveals, the more you will UNDERSTAND how to ACT. It has very little to do with Scholarship and EVERYTHING to do with the state of your heart.

For someone guided by the Spirit, you sure missed the point, too!

Since our revelation depends a whole lot on what we read in the Bible, it only stands to reason that we would not only want, but need to rely on some kind of scholarship, just in order to understand what the words say, and what the writers meant to say. If it weren't for scholarship, the apostles would have learned nothing more than fishing for herring, and we wouldn't have a Bible to read.