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Do differences in practices of faith mean we follow the same Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by uss_bigd, Mar 17, 2008.

  1. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    If i may repost....
     
  2. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    :biglaugh: are you kidding? This is exactly what I mean about fanciful interpretation.

    Let's pretend your fanciful interpretation is once again correct, it STILL does not mean there was an end to the Apostles, only and end to things being sent!!!

    Honestly, this is getting beyond remedial. Think for a minute about this before you barf up the same garbage.


    Your argument is retarded and you aren't understanding the words I am using (sorry but this is getting old). I didn't argue what you are attempting to responding to. Would you like to try again or admit failure?

    uh, where did I profess to be wise? and why would you think that would shift the burden of proof to me? You are the goof ball that made the claim, it's YOUR job to prove it. so far you are doing a smashing job... :cover:

    We are clear on what you *think*... so far you don't have any evidence for it.
     
  3. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    I agree it refers to the end tothe things beings sent, and what are those things being sent? actually they're people. read:

    1 Corinthians 4:9 (KJV)
    For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

    1 Corinthians 4:9 (NIV)
    For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.

    look whose talking:eek:

    :eek: look whose talking?
    tsk! tsk! I have proved that biblically speaking there shouldn't be any sources aside from the bible because the apostles were sent last. all you have said is i interpreted incorrectly, but yiu have failed to interpret it otherwise.

    "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last"

    Just answer the Question HOW CAN YOU INTERPRET THIS SENTENCE TO MEAN THAT SOMEONE CAME AFTER THE APOSTLES???:slap:
    EVIDENCE? YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS WHERE CAN I SEE IN THE BIBLE THAT THE ONLY SOURCE OF CHRIST'S TEACHINGS IS THE BIBLE. THE ONLY EVIDENCE I NEED IS A BIBLICAL VERSE:slap:
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The point I'm trying to make here is that you seem to take the admonishment to "keep to what is written" literalistically. That's fine. but if that's your position, why don't you do it faithfully? The gospels were not written when Paul wrote that statement, yet you "stick to them." Extending your line of reasoning, if I'm silly for relying on a later writing, such as the Nicene Creed, to inform my theology, why aren't you silly for relying on a later writing, such as John's gospel, to inform your theology? The reasoning should apply across the board to all later writings to which Paul does not refer in Corinthians.
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The "pearls" refer to solid Biblical scholarship, which I have given to you. What you have regurgitated has nothing to do with Biblical scholarship.
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I'd like to see this statement backed up with solid evidence (doesn't include Biblical eisegesis). There is not one legitimate Christian denomination that exists "just to make money." Check with the IRS. All of them are 501.c non-profits. Case closed.
     
  7. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    The apostles was lived in one time period. didn't you know that Peter was the person named Cephas in the letters of Paul?

    I will not accept anything that was not written by the apostles. i will remain within what they written because i dont want to fall under this verse;

    Matthew 15:9
    But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Only the apostles can write the words of God because they are the only ones who lived and had contact with Jesus Christ!
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Then you don't accept any of the gospels, because we cannot be in any way sure of (in fact, evidence is against) their apostolic authorship. Nor do you accept Colossians or Ephesians, which almost certainly were not written by Paul (or any apostle). Guess Matt. 15:9 must refer to you, if you do accept them...

    BTW, Paul didn't know Jesus, nor did he "have contact" with him, except on the road to Damascus...
     
  9. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    1. Don't edit my words and leave them in quotes. That is called lying.

    2. You are obviously having difficulty seeing the difference between the two arguments and beyone that, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the scriptures you continue repeating will not apply to the question no matter how many times you post them. I can't help you get smarter... :shrug:


    This is your argument? nice...:rolleyes:

    Maybe you should think a little longer on what it means to "prove" something. You haven't proven anything. You have merely provided opinion on what you consider to be evidence.

    I'll answer your question when you finally answer mine. You have dodged it this entire time. What are you afraid of? :flirt:

    um.... yep... and I'm still waiting for some biblical verses that say what you are claiming. I'm pretty sure you aren't going to come up with anything new and the verses you keep quoting don't have anything to do with my question.

    I'm starting to get bored. Do you have any new material or can you just admit the bible doesn't say it is the only source of Jesus' teachings. :yes:
     
  10. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    gee, are you looking for exact words?

    ever learning but does not arrive to the knowledge of the truth...:slap:
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You have stated your opinion "that biblically speaking there shouldn't be any sources aside from the bible because the apostles were sent last." You haven't proved anything.

    BTW, the whole argument against the scriptural veracity of the LDS sacred writings is one of historical and form criticism, not one of "apostolic authorship." The argument of "non-apostolic authorship" only supports those writings as authentic scripture, by the same yardstick we use to include the gospels, Colossians and Ephesians in the scriptural canon.
     
  12. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    I read a verse then it is my opinion? all you have done so far is tell i am wrong. you have not made you stance ot attempted to present the correct interpretation.

    let us end this here Sojourner;

    1 Cor 4:6

    6Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.


    Us- in this verse refers to the apostles including the gospels, there are verses that will prove that the apostles were in contact with each otther.

    NOW, INTERPRET THIS VERSE TO MEAN THAT WE SHOULD REFER TO OTHER WRITINGS ASIDE FROM THOSE THAT THE APOSTLES IN THE BIBLE WROTE.

    HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PROVE WITH BIBLICAL VERSES THAT IT IS OK TO REFER TO YOUR NICENE CREED OR BOOK OF MORMON?

    DONT TELL ME HOW I AM WRONG, ANSWER THE QUESTION AND EXPLAIN HOW YOU ARE RIGHT.

    1 Cor 4:9

    For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.


    EXPLAIN THIS VERSE TO MEAN THAT THE APOSTLES WERENT LAST, THAT SOMEONE CAME NEXT.

    I WANT TO SEE VERSES SOJOURNER.

    IF YOU CANT JUST SAY YOU CANT, OR SAY YOUR EXPLAINATION IS NON-BIBLICAL
     
  13. IIChr7:14

    IIChr7:14 Member

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    1Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

    "Last"
    G2078
    ἔσχατος
    eschatos
    es'-khat-os
    A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

    Biblically speaking the apostles were sent last.
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yes. Unless you can back up your statements exegetically, it's merely your opinion. it's always proper to back up what you think with sources other than the unique lens through which you understand what you read. Third-party perspective is crucial to interpretation, if that interpretation is going to be anything other than opinion.

    I have made several attempts to provide a reasonable interpretation, but you don't want to accept it. You'd rather just dismiss it out-of-hand, because you don't want to be wrong. Your "I just use the Bible" thing DOESN'T WORK, because it's proof-texting, which ignores the crucial outside perspective that is necessary to understanding in a context that is broader than just one's own experience.

    However.

    If you put the verse in context (always a very good idea, because, when you take things out of context, you can make them mean lots of things the writer never intended), beginning with the beginning of the chapter and reading through vs. 13, you get a much better idea of what Paul is saying. He's talking about the servant status of the apostles -- how they serve the people, who have become kings. At the end of 13, he says, "We have become like the rubbish of the world, the dregs of all things, to this very day." The line in question, "I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, as though we were sentenced to death" has to do, not with an ordinal of time, but an ordinal of place -- last place among the Church. It's plain as the nose on your face, if you don't proof-text it. It is not compelling to your argument of "later writings," or "later people."

    In any case, vs. 6 has nothing to do with canonical text over extra-canonical text. This letter, itself, was considered by Paul to be "extra-canonical," or, "not-scripture."
    The thrust of this statement juxtaposes the placement of favor on the messenger, as opposed to the message. What he's trying to get across is that the apostles, themselves, are no different from the people they serve. They are not great -- it's the message they bring that is great. This has nothing to do with the Nicene Creed -- unless, of course, we revere the bishops who gave us that message over the message itself.

    This has nothing to do with "stuff the apostles wrote." Since there is is no real evidence of apostolic authorship of either the gospels, and, at least Colossians and Ephesians, it cannot mean what you say it means.

    Since the Nicene Creed is true to scriptural theology, in fact, has been extrapolated from it, the message is considered to be valid. It has always been the practice of the Faithful to extrapolate theology from scripture, and expound upon it. Read the Talmud sometime. The Creed is nothing more than N.T. "Talmud."

    There. I have provided a valid interpretation, using, not only the verses you provided, but the verses surrounding them, as well. Sorry to burst your bubble.
     
  15. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    The verse said, exhibited at the end of the procession. which obviously refer to chronology. The KJV stated " sent last not 'placed" last, therefore does not refer to an ordinal of place, but an ordinal of time.

    The statement ' as though we sentenced to death, means they are going to die, that is why they are the last. because once they die, we can only have fellowhip with them through what they wrote. ( as stated by john)

    Paul should have used the word "least" if he meant alt place in the church. as he did in:

    1 Corinthians 15:9

    For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


    but then Again, all you have done is say i erred in the interpretation.

    So what is your stance? do you beleive that there were apostles who came next?
    back it up with scripture, if you can't, just say your not biblical and were done.


    It clearly refes to what the apostles wrote:

    Acts 1:22-23

    "Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

    And;

    1 John 1:3-4

    "We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.


    The main medium by which Paul and the apostles taught the early chrsitains was clearly through there letters that we can find in todays bible.

    This was clearly stated by Peter;

    2 Peter 3:15

    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;



    Then again, you just showed how my interpretations are wrong, whats your stance?

    Do you believe that it refers to other writings? which ones does the verse refer to then? can you support it with other biblical verses? if not, jsut tell me your justifications are not biblilcal and we are done.


    The Grace of God is enough for me. I don't need to learn your theology. besides if God does not want me to understand his words i won't be able to even if i try;

    I think it is an insult to God's power to make us understand if we need to go through scholarship to understand the bible. and this thinking is supported by who God favors:

    1 Corinthians 1:27
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

    besides:

    Daniel 12:10
    Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.




    THERE IS NO BUBBLE TO BURST.

    TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY!!!


    Remember God told Jeremiah;

    Jeremiah 9:23-24

    This is what the LORD says:

    "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom
    or the strong man boast of his strength
    or the rich man boast of his riches,


    24 but let him who boasts boast about this:
    that he understands and knows me,
    that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
    justice and righteousness on earth,
    for in these I delight,"
    declares the LORD.



    THANKS BE TO GOD!!!
     
  16. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    There you go!!!
     
  17. IIChr7:14

    IIChr7:14 Member

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    1Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

    Paul was not referring to an ordinal of place but he was talking of an ordinal time because he said "like all men sentenced to death" men were appointed to die. He was clearly saying that they were the last apostles to be sent.

    in hebrews chapter 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Unto the succession of apostleship(men) the apostles were the last.

    In our time there are still apostles(men),
    2Corinthians 11:13 "For such arefalseapostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

    The bible warns us of these apostles, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. I have an apostle who is Christ, not men who are calling themselves to be the apostle of Christ in our time.




     
  18. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    nice!:bow:
     
  19. IIChr7:14

    IIChr7:14 Member

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    In Chapter 4 Paul was teaching humility to his brethren because some were puffed up or arrogant 1Cor 4:18 as though they have not receive 1Cor 4:7. They even go beyond what was written 1 Cor 4:6 because there are some in the brethren who were high minded.
    He gave himself(Paul) as an example of being an apostle but did not seek glory of his own but as a servant of Christ 1Cor 4:1 with all humility, to teach some brethren who're boasting as though they did not receive it.

    That's why he said in 1 Cor 4:14 "I do not write these things to make you ashamed" Even though Paul was an apostle of Christ he did not think highly of himself but with all humilty 1Cor 4:10-11 So he was teaching them to humble themselves not because he wanted them to be ashamed but because he love them so he corrected them.
    So thats what he want also to see from his brethren not to think highly of themselves, but be imitators of him(Paul) 1Cor 4:16.
    So he was not talking ordinal place of being an apostle last place among the Church. But rather ordinal in time because they were appointed to death.

    And as the whole context of chapter 4 says he is one of the last apostles to be sent, an apostle who is a servant of Christ who does not seek his own glory but the glory of God, unlike some brethren in Corinthians.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    There's part of your problem. King James English is not the best translation.
    Nope. We all die, yet the Church goes on...
    you don't have the least idea what Paul "should have used," because you're not interested in exegesis.
    Backing something up with scripture is clearly proof-texting. Proof-texting does not produce valid argument. If you don't want to debate, just say so, admit defeat, and move on with your life.

    There is very little clear evidence that the apostles wrote the gospels. Nor is there evidence that the letters to which you refer are the canonical letters. You're peeing into the wind here.
    I suspect it does.
    You can't support your theory "with other Biblical verses." Therefore, your justifications are just as "non-Biblical." I guess you're done...
    Grace has very little to do with interpretation...
    I think it's an insult to God's Word to not employ the best scholarship to which we have access, in order to come to a clearer understanding. It's also an insult to the intellect God gave us to shove it in a closet every time we approach scripture.
    This has nothing to do with Biblical scholarship.
    You're proof-texting again. I thought "the wise," (who, apparently, from this passage, understand), are really confounded and do not understand, because the previous passage says so...
    Remember the words of Jesus:
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."
     
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