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Do both God and the devil have their on version of magic?

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Third, it is possible, though unlikely, this is one of the few cases in which God permitted the use of objects to discern His will. Other examples include the casting of lots (Leviticus 16:7-10), the priest’s use of the Urim and Thummim (Numbers 27:21), and Gideon’s use of the fleece (Judges 6:36-40). If Joseph did practice divination with the silver cup, it was not divination in the pagan sense but seeking God’s will through a particular method. I got this from this website:

What kind of divination did Joseph do in Genesis 44:5, 15?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Third, it is possible, though unlikely, this is one of the few cases in which God permitted the use of objects to discern His will. Other examples include the casting of lots (Leviticus 16:7-10), the priest’s use of the Urim and Thummim (Numbers 27:21), and Gideon’s use of the fleece (Judges 6:36-40). If Joseph did practice divination with the silver cup, it was not divination in the pagan sense but seeking God’s will through a particular method. I got this from this website:

What kind of divination did Joseph do in Genesis 44:5, 15?
casting lots was like tossing the dice. it made things more random vs personal.


love is white magic
black magic is for self-aggrandizing.
 
Divination, magic, astral travel, ect, all of it is of God because all of it is real. And only God can create reality. The devil cannot create reality of any form.
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
What kind of divination did Joseph do in Genesis 44:5, 15?
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Question: "What kind of divination did Joseph do in Genesis 44:5, 15?"

Answer:
In Genesis 44, Joseph tests his brothers (who have not recognized him) by returning their money in each sack of grain they had purchased. In Benjamin’s sack, he places his special silver cup. After the brothers leave for home, Joseph sends his steward after them to confront them over the “theft” of the cup. The steward was to say to them, “Why have you repaid evil for good? Is it not from this that my lord drinks, and by this that he practices divination? You have done evil in doing this” (verses 4-5). In verse 15, Joseph accuses his brothers in person, saying, “What deed is this that you have done? Do you not know that a man like me can indeed practice divination?” Joseph’s claim to have knowledge by divination seems to conflict with the Bible’s condemnation of divination as evil (Deuteronomy 18:10; 1 Samuel 15:23). Here are some points to consider:

First, it is clear that Joseph’s use of the “divining cup” is part of his test for his brothers. He planted evidence that would link them to a serious crime. Since the cup was part of a setup, it may have not been used in divination at all. There is no indication in the passage that Joseph actually used the cup for divination. Instead, Joseph may have claimed he used it to divine matters in order to raise the stakes and incite more fear in his brothers’ hearts.

Second, divination was common in ancient Middle Eastern cultures, especially among its leaders. In fact, Laban once said to Jacob, “I have learned by divination that the LORD has blessed me because of you” (Genesis 30:27). Jacob’s sons would have at least been aware of the practice and known what divination was, whether or not Joseph actually used the cup for that purpose. Divination in the Egyptian court would have been common, and a reference to it would have seemed natural to Joseph’s brothers.

Third, it is possible, though unlikely, this is one of the few cases in which God permitted the use of objects to discern His will. Other examples include the casting of lots (Leviticus 16:7-10), the priest’s use of the Urim and Thummim (Numbers 27:21), and Gideon’s use of the fleece (Judges 6:36-40). If Joseph did practice divination with the silver cup, it was not divination in the pagan sense but seeking God’s will through a particular method.

The most likely scenario is that Joseph owned a silver divination cup as did all Egyptian nobility at that time. The context is not clear that Joseph ever used this cup in divination. As part of his plan to test his brothers, he placed something small yet valuable in Benjamin’s grain sack. A silver cup was a perfect object in this case, as it held great financial and spiritual value in Egypt. The reaction of Joseph’s brothers reveals their concern: “They tore their clothes” (Genesis 44:13). Judah also said, “How can we clear ourselves? God has found out the guilt of your servants; behold, we are my lord's servants” (Genesis 44:16). Joseph’s test worked. His brothers were immediately convicted of their sin against Joseph and attributed their current misfortune to God’s hand of justice.

Another consideration is that Joseph had no need to use a cup for divination. God had enabled him to have prophetic dreams himself and to interpret the dreams of others. Joseph found his success in God without the use of props. After revealing his identity to his brothers and forgiving the wrong they had done him, Joseph sent them back to their father with this report: “God has made me lord of all Egypt” (Genesis 45:9).

This is the website i posted in my first post. What kind of divination did Joseph do in Genesis 44:5, 15? Please read and tell me what you think.:)
 
Magos - Greek Lexicon

Look at that link. The magi that God guided to christ, God guided them using there methods. The word magi means magician. Also sorcerer, soothsayer, auger, seer, dream interpreter, prophet, ect.

None of its evil. Now, it can be used for evil.

Its like a knife. Knives arent evil, but they can be used as such.
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Third, it is possible, though unlikely, this is one of the few cases in which God permitted the use of objects to discern His will. Other examples include the casting of lots (Leviticus 16:7-10), the priest’s use of the Urim and Thummim (Numbers 27:21), and Gideon’s use of the fleece (Judges 6:36-40). If Joseph did practice divination with the silver cup, it was not divination in the pagan sense but seeking God’s will through a particular method.

Here it says the pagans use divination.Both it says God doesn't like it.But it also says God did it with Gideon and he was happy about it.So i think there is a difference.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This is the website i posted in my first post. What kind of divination did Joseph do in Genesis 44:5, 15? Please read and tell me what you think.:)

Yes, your site brings up some valid points......and yes, divination from God is way different from the divination used by the devil. Joseph could well have used his close relationship with God to predict the things that would happen, as demonstrated by his dreams when he was a young boy, and his ability to tell the future as shown by his interpreting Pharaoh's dreams. Joseph was sent ahead of his family to Egypt to preserve their family from a drought that had ravaged the land. The 7 years of plenty followed by the 7 years of drought preserved the line of Israel, leading to the Messiah. Which is how the Hebrews came to be in Egypt in the first place.

"Divination" means "the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means."....it "embraces generally the whole scope of gaining secret knowledge, especially about future events, through the aid of spiritistic occult powers."

"Supernatural" means "(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." So both God and the devil fit that description. The one difference is that the practice of magical arts or divination is condemned in no uncertain terms in the Bible....so it is "unauthorized" use of power that this is speaking about. God only authorizes this power when it is in accord with his will.

The power that satan has was seen in another Pharaoh's magic practicing priests being able to duplicate Moses' miracles. It was seen in the fortune tellers using uncanny power to predict the future in the land of Canaan.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 warns...."But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved."

Satan is very capable of supernatural power and he is adept as disguising himself as "an angel of light".
Deception is his stock in trade.....so don't be fooled. Mistaking one for the other could cost you dearly.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Magos - Greek Lexicon

Look at that link. The magi that God guided to christ, God guided them using there methods. The word magi means magician. Also sorcerer, soothsayer, auger, seer, dream interpreter, prophet, ect.

If God forbids the practice of magic, astrology, sorcery and divination (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) then we had better not touch it.

What makes you think that God would direct magic practicing astrologers to his son? If the magi were directed by God, why not guide them straight to Jesus? Why stop in Jerusalem to alert a wicked and jealous King who then hatched a plot to kill the new "King of the Jews" before he even had a chance to grow up? The star moved, after their encounter with Herod and "stopped" right above the house where Jesus was living with his parents. He was possibly 2 years old by then. If God had not directed them to go back to their country by another way, Jesus may well have died with all those babies.....and that would have been God's fault.

To my understanding, the magi were pagan dupes used by the devil, and the star was sent by him....not God, who announced Jesus' birth to Jewish shepherds...not to pagan astrologers.
Look what he's got the world believing!.....Lies! Every Christmas there is that star on top of the Christmas tree.....there are the magi at the stable in their nativity scenes....they were never there....and the Bible doesn't mention how many there were.

None of its evil. Now, it can be used for evil.

True....it was never designed for evil purposes, but the power retained by satan and his demons is sufficient to fool many people into believing things that are not true. The extent of the evil is only now beginning to dawn on people as they see world conditions worsening in every way...and no solutions in sight.

Its like a knife. Knives arent evil, but they can be used as such.

Wi-fi is not evil....or is it? For many, it is a form of enslavement, with everything they do recorded on social media and stored in a big "cloud". Big Brother much?
Atomic power is not evil, but atomic bombs are...is there a connection?

There is a lot of evil going on in the world under the guise of beneficial things like entertainment. How many acts of violence are children exposed to just in their computer games? We are raising a generation where empathy is not fostered, love of neighbor is non existent and love for God being replaced by love of science.

True Christians are ready for what is coming (Matthew 24:42-44)....but I don't think the bulk of church goers have a clue. They are by and large, sheep without a shepherd. Those leading them are as clueless as they are.....the blind leading the blind.....:(
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Divination, magic, astral travel, ect, all of it is of God because all of it is real. And only God can create reality. The devil cannot create reality of any form.
Jollybear, who was behind Pharaoh's magic priests' turning their staffs into snakes? (Exodus 7)

Satan, obviously.
 
If God forbids the practice of magic, astrology, sorcery and divination (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) then we had better not touch it.

What makes you think that God would direct magic practicing astrologers to his son? If the magi were directed by God, why not guide them straight to Jesus? Why stop in Jerusalem to alert a wicked and jealous King who then hatched a plot to kill the new "King of the Jews" before he even had a chance to grow up? The star moved, after their encounter with Herod and "stopped" right above the house where Jesus was living with his parents. He was possibly 2 years old by then. If God had not directed them to go back to their country by another way, Jesus may well have died with all those babies.....and that would have been God's fault.

To my understanding, the magi were pagan dupes used by the devil, and the star was sent by him....not God, who announced Jesus' birth to Jewish shepherds...not to pagan astrologers.
Look what he's got the world believing!.....Lies! Every Christmas there is that star on top of the Christmas tree.....there are the magi at the stable in their nativity scenes....they were never there....and the Bible doesn't mention how many there were.



True....it was never designed for evil purposes, but the power retained by satan and his demons is sufficient to fool many people into believing things that are not true. The extent of the evil is only now beginning to dawn on people as they see world conditions worsening in every way...and no solutions in sight.



Wi-fi is not evil....or is it? For many, it is a form of enslavement, with everything they do recorded on social media and stored in a big "cloud". Big Brother much?
Atomic power is not evil, but atomic bombs are...is there a connection?

There is a lot of evil going on in the world under the guise of beneficial things like entertainment. How many acts of violence are children exposed to just in their computer games? We are raising a generation where empathy is not fostered, love of neighbor is non existent and love for God being replaced by love of science.

True Christians are ready for what is coming (Matthew 24:42-44)....but I don't think the bulk of church goers have a clue. They are by and large, sheep without a shepherd. Those leading them are as clueless as they are.....the blind leading the blind.....:(

Thats the issue, right there, God is not forbidding these occult practices, hes forbidding the wrong use of it. Hes addressing the motivations, not the practice.

If the magi wer ungodly men, why did they come to give gifts and honor to the born Christ?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thats the issue, right there, God is not forbidding these occult practices, hes forbidding the wrong use of it. Hes addressing the motivations, not the practice.

Actually what God is forbidding is occult practices without his consent. The term "occult" means "hidden", so we are dealing with power, the source of which is not obvious at first glance.

Since God mentioned all of those things in Deuteronomy, then that shows us what sort of practices to be careful about. All form of spiritism are forbidden. His people were entering a land that was rife with these satanic practices, so to err on the side of caution was to avoid them altogether. God appointed those who would be authorized to use his spirit....but only he would provide it.

There are only two sources of that kind of power....if God has not authorized it, it comes from the devil.....even if appears to be beneficial.

Its got nothing to do with motivations....it's got to do with the source of the power and our obedience to God's commands. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

If the devil can portray himself as "an angel of light", then how will people know that they are tapping into the wrong power? How does satan get away with deceiving people if not using his power in a deceptive way? He can make it appear to come from God....making something evil look like something good.

How do you think those rejected by Jesus can claim to have 'prophesied, expelled demons and performed powerful works in Jesus name', if the power they used was from God?

The master deceiver does not play fair. This is why we must be vigilant and know what God's word says about these things. Satan knows better than anyone how to bait a trap.

If the magi wer ungodly men, why did they come to give gifts and honor to the born Christ?

The magi were not searching for the child Jesus out of ill will. It was their custom to bring gifts to royal children. The devil used them as dupes to alert Herod that a rival king had been born. In his own mind, no one was going to succeed him as King but his own sons, so he had to eliminate any opposition before it had a chance to threaten his dynasty.

If the star had been from God, it would have led them straight to Jesus. Remember that after their visit in Jerusalem, the star came to a stop above the very house where Jesus was. This was no ordinary star, but it led to mass murder. It was not from God.

Many people believe that the magi were sent by God to worship this child, but that was not their mission. They had no evil intent, but satan used then by means of their astrological beliefs and practices, something condemned in God's law. They did not worship Jesus but came to honor him as a future King.
 
Actually what God is forbidding is occult practices without his consent. The term "occult" means "hidden", so we are dealing with power, the source of which is not obvious at first glance.

I dont think it has anything to do with Gods consent, it has everything to do with motives. A right motive is what God consents too.

Saying we need Gods consent to this is like saying we need Gods consent to go for a walk around the block. In fact, i knew a lady, she told me everyday before she got dressed, shed ask God what color to wear that day. We dont need Gods consent. Its about motive.

Also i think your interpreting "hidden" knowledge different then me. Your saying the power source is hidden. I disagree. The power source in ocultism is YOU the practitioner. God gave us untapped abilities. Its an ability like any other, like the ability to run, talk, type, whatever

Whats hidden is that which is hidden to the five physical senses. Take ESP (extra sensory perceptions) as an example. What perception or knowledge one discovers using ESP or "remote viewing" is discovered by the 6th sense. Its hidden to the 5 physical senses. Hence, occult or hidden knowledge.

In this light, God himself is engaged in occult knowledge.

Since God mentioned all of those things in Deuteronomy, then that shows us what sort of practices to be careful about. All form of spiritism are forbidden. His people were entering a land that was rife with these satanic practices, so to err on the side of caution was to avoid them altogether. God appointed those who would be authorized to use his spirit....but only he would provide it.

Heres what ive noticed about some forms of traditional christianity when it comes to the occult; they have thrown the baby out with the dirty bath water in the name of siding on the side of caution. How is that any different then someone saying ill never open up my own business because theres too many bad things out there that could happen?

Its not the practices in and of themselves that God was condemning, it was the wrong use of the practices and making a contract with other gods with its use.

Let me give you an analogy. I use to work at home depot. While i was, i was working another job too. However, i was not allowed to work at another place that was LIKE home depot because of the conflict of interest.

Its the same with these practices, those practices are both methods and devoloping skills. Only God wanted his people using them for his work, not using them for other gods and there work. It would have been a conflict of interest.

Even the levitical priesthood used occult like methods, look at the urim and thumim as an example.

Necromancy is listed in the verse, which means to talk to the spirits of the dead. Well, hey, Jesus did that with Moses and Elijah. So, its not the practice in and of itself, its motive and whos contracted with.

There are only two sources of that kind of power....if God has not authorized it, it comes from the devil.....even if appears to be beneficial.

No, thats simply not true. Theres God, the devil and then there is YOU. God does not have to authorize it, God has already designed these abilities within people. The devil does not need to do it either. People have the abilities. If you research remote viewing it will show you this. I know theres some people out there who think remote viewing is nonsense, but those people are ignorant. The research has shown hits above chance. Even sceptics that wer a part of the work admitted an anomaly.

Yes, God and the devil can do things. But, so can humans.

Its got nothing to do with motivations....it's got to do with the source of the power and our obedience to God's commands. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

I dont agree. If you study the bible long enough, you see rather quickly that motives play a big role in what God judges verses what he passes over. The same thing can be committed, yet in one instence God judges it, while another he gives it no thought.

If the devil can portray himself as "an angel of light", then how will people know that they are tapping into the wrong power? How does satan get away with deceiving people if not using his power in a deceptive way? He can make it appear to come from God....making something evil look like something good.

Yea, i understand your concern there. The bible sets up a test. It says "test the spirits" it also says "test (or prove) all things". It also says the "fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, ect". Jesus said "youl know by the fruit". Also "God is not a God of confusion but of peace".

In other words, satan cannot give love, joy or peace.

Also, if your doing the practice and you get results, thats YOU. That shows you have tapped the ability.

How do you think those rejected by Jesus can claim to have 'prophesied, expelled demons and performed powerful works in Jesus name', if the power they used was from God?

You gotta be very careful when you interprete the bible. Jesus also said to his disciples when they told him about a man casting out demons in his name and they tried to stop him; Jesus said "no one who casts out a demon in my name can say anything bad about me."

Also he said "if satan cast out satan, his kingdom is devided and will not stand"

The key is this: to love. It sounds so simple and cleshay, but thats what matters. Some people will do all these powerful things, but not love, therefore God will judge them for that.

Look at balaam as an example. He had an ability. It was not from satan. In fact, it wasnt even from God. It was a skill he had devoloped. In fact, God knew this ability was so real that God stopped him from using it on his people. Now, why in the world if it was not real would God stop him? Think about that for a second. In fact, God USED his ability and turned it in the direction of blessing his people instead of harm. In other words, God made him BREAK his former CONTRACT. God contracted with him instead.

The master deceiver does not play fair. This is why we must be vigilant and know what God's word says about these things. Satan knows better than anyone how to bait a trap.

Agreed.

The magi were not searching for the child Jesus out of ill will. It was their custom to bring gifts to royal children. The devil used them as dupes to alert Herod that a rival king had been born. In his own mind, no one was going to succeed him as King but his own sons, so he had to eliminate any opposition before it had a chance to threaten his dynasty.

If the star had been from God, it would have led them straight to Jesus. Remember that after their visit in Jerusalem, the star came to a stop above the very house where Jesus was. This was no ordinary star, but it led to mass murder. It was not from God.

Didn't you say we must be vigilant and know God's word?

Well, God warned the magi in a dream not to return to herod. Also, the the star was called christ star by the magi. Also if you want to say the star was from the devil, you may as well also say that the passage the teachers of the law gave to herod due to his request of where the child would be born, that passage was of the devil too? Because it was the passage that also led the magi. You see? It dont add up.

Many people believe that the magi were sent by God to worship this child, but that was not their mission. They had no evil intent, but satan used then by means of their astrological beliefs and practices, something condemned in God's law. They did not worship Jesus but came to honor him as a future King.

It was not the star that caused the deaths of children. It was the magi trusting herod at first that led to the deaths.

Look, satan is gonna do his thing whether magi are following a star or a passage or not.

Ill get to your other post tomorrow.
 
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Jollybear, who was behind Pharaoh's magic priests' turning their staffs into snakes? (Exodus 7)

Satan, obviously.

The bible does not say who was behind pharoughs priests staffs turning to snakes. However, lets just pretend it was satan, ok, fine. It still does not mean humans have no occult abilities. But, in a direct sense, the bible says they did it by there secret arts. Ok, well, what does that mean? I think it means that there was secret knowledge. Moses knew of it, as well as those priests. And moses contracted with yahwah, while the priests contracted with there gods (demons, or satan). The knowledge itself isnt of the devil. This is the point im trying to make.

God was basically a more powerful occultist if ya will.
 
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