Do Baha'i covert people to their way of thinking?Yes or no?

[F1fan]

Anyone is free to object or question our beliefs. For the uninformed, Baha’is believe that this is the Day of God.

And for the well informed the "Day of God" has no objective meaning. It means something to Bahai, and is irrelevant to anyone else. All religions have their own ideas, and they each assign meaning to those ideas because that is part of how tribalism works.

Which means God is with us in the form of infallible Divine guidance for at least another approximately 800 years.

So what? It's what you believe. I don't see any purpose for any theist to just post their beliefs. These aren't arguments, these are just claims. If they were arguments you would be able to cite facts and a coherent explanation. You don't. You have no facts. You have an ideological scenario that is implausible and fantastic. No rational mind will agree that your religious beliefs are reasonable.

The greatness of this Day is we Baha’is believe, is that it is the Day of the Promised One. The Fifth Buddha, the Lord of Hosts, Kalki Avatar, Shah Bahram, the return of Jesus as the Father and the Twelfth Imam. This we believe is Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah, signed and sealed His Writings. In His Will He appointed Abdul-Baha with infallibility and in His turn Shoghi Effendi. After Shoghi Effendi the Universal House of Justice is now the infallible Body guiding Baha’is.

So what?

The total literature encompasses just about all topics. For example when non Baha’is ask a question, Baha’is are mostly giving them a paraphrasing of what our scriptures say. There is almost always a letter or answer that has already been stated by One of the infallible Figures that we could quote without paraphrasing at all.

OK, you believe the texts. So what? You offer no facst to establish any objective truth here.

Also, it is the very first time that humanity has had available to it continuous infallibility to guide it after the Prophet died. In the past religions split into schisms because their Prophet left no will.

Humanity doesn't seem impressed. Nor are critical thinkers.

This is the very first time in history that humanity we believe, has access to infallible knowledge should it wish to avail itself of it.

It's what you believe, but you can't explain how it is believable or true. I haven't seen any text explain what humanity should do with the mentally ill, or sociopaths. The simplicity of "don't be violent" is no help.

BUT. That does not make individual Baha’is special or chosen ones or infallible whatsoever. It’s just that we have access to this infallible knowledge and convey it to others . But anyone can have access to it as well. It’s there for one and all.

You admit to not being infallible, yet you think you have infallible knowledge. How would you know?

Yet your God is absent. Your Messenger is dead. But we are supposed to take your word for it?

The texts are flawed, as critics point out. Believers ignore the flaws. Thinkers can't use blind faith.

 

[Bird123]

We tell people but then it’s up to them to investigate or not.

Still, you are asking them to join an established religion. That's a convert whether you care to admit it or not.

You are asking them to Believe. That is not the same as pointing in the direction by which they can Discover the truth for themselves without relying on beliefs.

Lose the established religion then do not clone their message and I might go along with you might not be trying to convert. On the other hand, if you want followers, then we are back at converting.

What's the saying? A rose by any other name is still a rose.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

So nobody can be born into a faith? All are converted?

Well now, are atheists converted? So, converted can not include all people.

You are right in that anyone who follows an established religion has to have been converted. People can kid themselves into thinking that isn't so, however, just like you said, nobody is born into a faith.

Very Good!! One can not run from your Math!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[loverofhumanity]

And for the well informed the "Day of God" has no objective meaning. It means something to Bahai, and is irrelevant to anyone else. All religions have their own ideas, and they each assign meaning to those ideas because that is part of how tribalism works.


So what? It's what you believe. I don't see any purpose for any theist to just post their beliefs. These aren't arguments, these are just claims. If they were arguments you would be able to cite facts and a coherent explanation. You don't. You have no facts. You have an ideological scenario that is implausible and fantastic. No rational mind will agree that your religious beliefs are reasonable.


So what?


OK, you believe the texts. So what? You offer no facst to establish any objective truth here.


Humanity doesn't seem impressed. Nor are critical thinkers.



It's what you believe, but you can't explain how it is believable or true. I haven't seen any text explain what humanity should do with the mentally ill, or sociopaths. The simplicity of "don't be violent" is no help.


You admit to not being infallible, yet you think you have infallible knowledge. How would you know?

Yet your God is absent. Your Messenger is dead. But we are supposed to take your word for it?

The texts are flawed, as critics point out. Believers ignore the flaws. Thinkers can't use blind faith.

I can only prove from my investigation if I am satisfied with the proofs of Baha’u’llah. I can’t speak for others. Other religions also belief in the infallibility of their Prophet and scriptures such as Christ, Muhammad and others. So this belief in infallibility is ancient.

But because These Beings are Spiritual Teachers and that is Their work then we need to establish Their validity using spiritual proofs as contained in Their Lives, Teachings and Prophecies regarding Their appearance. Looking in the wrong place for proofs will result in finding none.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Still, you are asking them to join an established religion. That's a convert whether you care to admit it or not.

You are asking them to Believe. That is not the same as pointing in the direction by which they can Discover the truth for themselves without relying on beliefs.

Lose the established religion then do not clone their message and I might go along with you might not be trying to convert. On the other hand, if you want followers, then we are back at converting.

What's the saying? A rose by any other name is still a rose.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Most definitely not. I joined because I loved the teachings of Baha’u’llah and was thrilled to find He was the Promised One. Had nothing to do with other Baha’is. Just myself, the Writings of Baha’u’llah in my flat alone reading and reflecting. And my life is so happy and stable now because of my beliefs. Now I am eternally grateful to the Baha’is.

 

[Quagmire]

***Thread Moved to Religious Debates***​

 

[F1fan]

I can only prove from my investigation if I am satisfied with the proofs of Baha’u’llah. I can’t speak for others. Other religions also belief in the infallibility of their Prophet and scriptures such as Christ, Muhammad and others. So this belief in infallibility is ancient.

So what? Our mothers warned us not to get into trouble doing things just because other kids are doing it.

Sure ancient people had prophets. There is no objective reason to believe any prophet from any time is authentic. There’s no evidence and no conclusions that suggest they have special knowledge. Theists often claim they investigated before believing yet they never are able to articulate an objective and rational thinking process that critical thinkers recognize as valid.

But because These Beings are Spiritual Teachers and that is Their work then we need to establish Their validity using spiritual proofs as contained in Their Lives, Teachings and Prophecies regarding Their appearance. Looking in the wrong place for proofs will result in finding none.

This is a fantastic claim that has inadequate evidence for critical thinkers. What you write here is a set of claims. No one can accept them as true without many prior assumptions that aren’t plausible or reasonable.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No, we do not try to convert people, but sometimes people choose to join after doing their own investigation of the Baha'i Faith.

No, you don't, but the Baha'i are frequently citing unsolicited passages from their religious texts to unbelievers. You have done that with me several times. You probably know that I skim them or don't read them, since I don't comment on them except occasionally to say that they seem of human origin and not divine, and I suspect that is true with others. What is your reason for doing that it not to promote your faith? Why do you want others to know what Baha'u'llah thinks?

Looking in the wrong place for proofs will result in finding none.

Ain't that the truth! I've learned to consult nature and experience for guidance regarding what is real and true, and what is not.

my life is so happy and stable now because of my beliefs.

Religion can be comforting, but that comfort comes at a cost, one its adherents are rarely aware of. It demands vast amounts of scarce resources - time and money, and assorted opportunity costs. Some achieve that happiness without religion and without expending those resources on a religious life.

These are uncertain times financially for many, many of whom are tithing believers. I'll bet that they could use some of that money back they gave to underwrite a religion that won't return the favor if needed. It's a truism that when the church needs money, they ask the adherents for it, but when the adherents need help in return, the church tells them to pray or get a bank loan.

One of the greatest gifts of leaving religion and devoting resources to that life was the ability to retire ten years ahead of schedule and move to paradise. Ten extra years of leisure and beauty have been a source of happiness, without which I would still be living the American life of contention and uncertainty.

I'll bet that being actively involved in religion costs like having and raising children. Sure, it's an option, and for many, it gives their lives meaning and purpose. But that choice also consumes significant resources - the same three listed above - and how much better off are those whose lives are full and satisfying without that drain on their resources.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you don't, but the Baha'i are frequently citing unsolicited passages from their religious texts to unbelievers. You have done that with me several times. You probably know that I skim them or don't read them, since I don't comment on them except occasionally to say that they seem of human origin and not divine, and I suspect that is true with others. What is your reason for doing that it not to promote your faith? Why do you want others to know what Baha'u'llah thinks?

The reason that I sometimes post passages is to back up what I am saying in my post and whether that is necessary or not is on a case by case basis.

I certainly do not post passages in order to promote my faith.

 

[Bird123]

Most definitely not. I joined because I loved the teachings of Baha’u’llah and was thrilled to find He was the Promised One. Had nothing to do with other Baha’is. Just myself, the Writings of Baha’u’llah in my flat alone reading and reflecting. And my life is so happy and stable now because of my beliefs. Now I am eternally grateful to the Baha’is.

Then you were converted to their beliefs having been influenced by their writings. Yes, it was your choice to be converted. It was your choice to believe. It was your choice to follow.

Promised one?? What is the purpose of a promise when what Is is all that counts. Are you only searching for Emotional security??

I find it funny how quick people choose to believe when someone else says God promised or said so. In reality, so much is said about God that simply isn't true. God makes no promises. God sends no messengers. God isn't going to tell you what to do or intimidate those choices. That would defeat God's system.

So you are Happy and Content, Great. On the other hand, life isn't about having it made, being happy and contented. The journey has purpose. There is much more to life.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[England my lionheart]

Do Baha'i covert people to their way of thinking?Yes or no?

Is it just another name for evangelism?.

 

[firedragon]

You are right in that anyone who follows an established religion has to have been converted.

Do you have any studies on this? I mean some kind of quantitative or qualitative research?

 

[soulsurvivor]

Not at all. I have many friends and all we ever talk about is food, family and the weather. Never religion.

It is apparently your duty: "It is true that Bahá’u’lláh lays on every Bahá’í the duty to teach His Faith."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Then you were converted to their beliefs having been influenced by their writings. Yes, it was your choice to be converted. It was your choice to believe. It was your choice to follow.

Promised one?? What is the purpose of a promise when what Is is all that counts. Are you only searching for Emotional security??

I find it funny how quick people choose to believe when someone else says God promised or said so. In reality, so much is said about God that simply isn't true. God makes no promises. God sends no messengers. God isn't going to tell you what to do or intimidate those choices. That would defeat God's system.

So you are Happy and Content, Great. On the other hand, life isn't about having it made, being happy and contented. The journey has purpose. There is much more to life.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

For me it was always all about humanity. And the Baha’i teachings focus on rebuilding and rejuvenating it and creating a world civilisation. This promise of a golden age of humanity has been promised in all the scriptures of the major religions. So it’s very meaningful and enriching working for the betterment of the world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is apparently your duty: "It is true that Bahá’u’lláh lays on every Bahá’í the duty to teach His Faith."

Yes.

But with due respect.

If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Still, you are asking them to join an established religion. That's a convert whether you care to admit it or not.

You are asking them to Believe. That is not the same as pointing in the direction by which they can Discover the truth for themselves without relying on beliefs.

Lose the established religion then do not clone their message and I might go along with you might not be trying to convert. On the other hand, if you want followers, then we are back at converting.

What's the saying? A rose by any other name is still a rose.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I had to ask to join. I didn’t know one could become a member. The entire religion revolves around independent investigation of truth. That’s one reason the Faith is so small and grows so slowly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well now, are atheists converted? So, converted can not include all people.

You are right in that anyone who follows an established religion has to have been converted. People can kid themselves into thinking that isn't so, however, just like you said, nobody is born into a faith.

Very Good!! One can not run from your Math!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I think people are mistaking forced conversion for joining a religion. People who join our religion do so voluntarily out of choice not due to being forced.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Proselytization is only among the poor uneducated people in any religion or region. Proselytizers are like any other sales person. They get paid according to sales that they can make.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think people are mistaking forced conversion for joining a religion. People who join our religion do so voluntarily out of choice not due to being forced.

There is an in-between, called coerced conversion. Not exactly forced, but also not entirely on the person's own volition. You yourself have admitted many times how friendship evangelism influenced your decision.

 

[Vinayaka]

Proselytization is only among the poor uneducated people in any religion or region. Proselytizers are like any other sales person. They get paid according to sales that they can make.

At our garage sale for my MIL's last few possession, an older Baha'i man, on an apparent walked, left his card with my wife, a short introduction to the Baha'i faith and an invite to come participate.

I can't see many ordinary folks doing stuff like that. Imagine carrying business cards and handing them out to anyone and everybody.