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Do Athiests have morals?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by pro4life, Nov 5, 2014.

  1. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Agreed.

    I think he stays in philosophical discussions because he gets cornered in so many historical debates. Philosophy leaves enough room, one can just about debate anything credible or not, and not get cornered.
     
  2. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    I honestly don't know. I think that it is just his axiom that his god is the correct god so it doesn't really matter. Or perhaps there is some ingrained belief that secular morality is just whatever whenever instead of a complex and well thought out system that is subject to change when needed. So in his mind all morality is totally meaningless without an all powerful god. He has even stated prior that if there is no god then there is no morality. You'd have to ask him directly.
     
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  3. serp777

    serp777 Well-Known Member

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    I am not "merely" complaining. You certainly can't write a law that reflects an objective fact unless you assume God exists (im willing to concede this one for the sake of this discussion), and you assume he has a bunch of static objective moral values, and you assume that his morals don't change; then you'd have to guess completely and get very lucky for a moral law to be objectively true. Given that you can make an infinite number of moral laws, there is a zero percent probability that you will pick the correct laws (it would require an infinite amount of time to find them). You also have to assume that God cares about people following objective moral values, thus making them void essentially. And you have to assume that multiple Gods don't exist and don't have a wide range of inconsistent moral values. Next, you also have assume that humans are capable of expressing or thinking about God's objective moral truths--they may simply be too complex for a human to fully and unambiguously understand. Even more preposterously, you have to assume that God himself is infallible and omniscient; he cannot have his own subjectivity in regard to moral truths (It would have to mean that God couldn't have different morals).

    But once you accept all of these extremely vast and unprovable claims, then you certainly can't knowingly write a law that reflects an objective moral fact. Since you can't know whether your morals are in fact objective, it makes the entire enterprise futile because its impossible to know if you're correct. And God, being all knowing, would recognize that we cannot know. Finally, You also cannot say you are writing a law that reflects an objective moral fact because you don't have special knowledge of God in addition to a perfect interpretation of his. The law you write could be subjectivity interpreted very differently across different cultures and between different people.

    Furthermore, you still missed the main argument which is that cannot use your subjectivity to determine a moral truth. Even if all of the assumptions are true, and you happened to somehow guess the objective morality through your own subjective interpretation, then that would mean God's objective morals are still a matter of subjectivity because they could be interpreted differently as they are constructed in the form of words. There is no set of laws God could make that wouldn't be subject to subjectivity of some kind. Therefore, it is also very unlikely such morals actually exist in the first place, or that God expects any human to abide by them, thus defeating the entire point of objective moral values and duties in the first place..

    Well you are indeed a bad source for objective moral duties, as am i, unless you can prove you're the next prophet; the only thing we can say about you and me being objective moral sources is that it is as reliable as the celestial teapot or santa caluse. Next, having the slightest change of accurately describing an objective moral fact does not require God to exist--perhaps multiple Gods as i've mentioned earlier. In addition, like i've said if God exists, it doesn't necessarily entail that objective moral truths also exist

    The main point of my argument, ultimately, is that objective morality is simply impossible; even if these objective moral values exist, they are still subject to subjectivity by the simple fact that humans have to make interpretations and have problems with language and words. It undermines the idea that God would have made objective morals for us in the first place since they would be impossible to abide by accurately or know of their truth for that matter.
     
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  4. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    Robin, feel free to interject here.
     
  5. Eliab ben Benjamin

    Eliab ben Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Of course they have morals, being human like most of us, atheists have
    exactly the same opportunity to choose which paths they walk ..
     
  6. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Then you have conceded the primary claim I had made. However I will respond to the rest of your observations.

    The concept of God I would defend comes with all these assumptions in tact. They are not exactly assumptions they are aspects of a concept. IOW I was discussing the nature of moral duties given a concept of God that comes with eth aspects of being a personal and moral agent, being timeless and unchanging, and that prescribes moral duties for humanity. If that God exists and there is vast evidence to believe he does then there truly exists objective moral values and duties. The discussion of how well we can come to know what they are is not part of my original claims but given a God who is rational and who prescribes objective moral requirements for humanity would obviously made us capable of intuitively grasping that those moral precepts are in general. Any God who could not make humanity in such a way as to apprehend moral duties in general would be another type of God which is not under discussion.


    Given the fact that humanity comes up with very similar moral codes and principles I would think making a code that at least in general contrive a moral code roughly aligned with objective moral fact. The only way it would be as hopeless as you make it is if we made laws by using random typing machines or dice. However your putting something designed for one use to another and claiming foul. Regardless a moral landscape which at least objective moral truth exists holds every advantage over a godless world view where no objective moral duties and values exist at all.

    1. I made a point that if we claim a single moral duty is objectively existent then that requires God.
    2. God's moral commands are not meant to run a state. They are meant to run a person's life.

    Your circumventing the point I made and making one about my ability to determine which morals are objective instead, your taking a moral system designed for personal adoption and applying it to a state. So again we are having two distinct conversations. However even using outside of purpose and even granting no one can make a code of laws that perfectly matches God's will in every detail a Christian based moral framework (even with many flaws) still holds every advantage in every category over an opinion and preference based moral code. However difficult it would be to get at objective moral certainty given God at least there is some truth to look for, without God there is no actual truth to find and morality is freed from any actual foundations and is left free to be plugged into any foundation (none of which reflect actual fact).

    I do not share your pessimistic nihilistic view of identifying objective moral truths if God exists, and as I have not made any attempt to establish or claim what laws or what certainty we can have given God I would have to start a new discussion to address the issue. One thing I can say with certainty is any world view which includes objective moral duties and values (no matter how hard to identify), is superior in every category to one in which there are no objective moral values and duties exist to begin with and instead we call opinion and preference as if it were actually moral.

    Let me ask you something, what if anything do you know to an objective certainty about anything?


    I rarely see anyone who can respond to my claims in context they were never given in as often as you. I never said anything about me being a source of a moral anything. Humans cannot create moral facts, in fact nothing in nature contains a moral property. If we say that objective morality exists then we must allow that God does, if we deny God exists we must admit no objective moral values and duties exist, and instead we simply make them up.

    There is no argument possible that objective morality does not exist. Not that anything you said was even the attempt to try. There exists no line of reasoning that concludes with objective morality is impossible that uses factual premises. It would be next to impossible to show but it is possible that objective morality does not exist, it is a complete waste of time to claim it can't exist. It can't be done, and you have not even made an attempt at it.

    If God exists (the Christian concept of God) then he is by necessity the moral locus of the universe, his eternal nature determines all objective moral facts, and his moral commands merely reflect his nature. You have not done so but even if you could show humanity can't know what those moral commands are that would all still be true. But it is irrational to posit a God of revelation but deny him the ability to communicate. However almost every argument you made is misstated and only has one relevant point.

    If the biblical God exists then that fact overturns by necessity or by probability every argument you made. There is no question what his existence would mean in a moral context. The only question that remains is the original one, does he exist. Everything I have claimed either follows necessarily or in all likelihood from his existence and nature.


    Anyway you conceded the primary claim, I had originally made. You applied things intended in one context to another, and you have introduced a few new claims not addressed by my prior posts. Now if you want to discuss these new claims then pick one and I will reset what I claim concerning it and we can begin a new discussion.
     
  7. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Where does the bible say slavery is wrong and/or immoral?

    Sorry but I must have got all caught up in the part of the bible that condones it, that I missed the part where it condemns it.
     
  8. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Some one asked me to comment on this line of discussion. My computer was down yesterday. I have therefore backed up to the original post here and will do so.

    I do not think that a false God based moral system is generally better than secular morality. Since both have no ultimate truth then I do not know how to say that either would be more removed from non-existent fact than the other. IOW they are both equally vacuous of actual objective moral truth. So the only way I could distinguish them is be taking each claim and comparing it to what I would prefer. Fro example Islam's prohibition against abortion would be better than secularism open door policy, but secularism's rules about respecting pluralism would be better than Islam's convert or die doctrines. So I can't make any general claim and could only take each precept as it appears. I would think I would rather go with secularism than a false religion in more cases than the other way around. So your characterization is not 100% wrong but it is more wrong than right.

    BTW I had responded to your last long post when my server crashed so that reply will be coming at some point.
     
  9. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I think I went back and addressed this. It is not an accurate statement of what I believe and so all of it's conclusions are invalid. I explained what I do believe in this context in post # 1248.
     
  10. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I'm not sure where you've come up with that claim. I don't find that to be the case at all. In fact, from my study of psychotic serial killers, I've found that the
    majority of them were raised in two parent homes, and in many cases they were homes where the parents stayed together but were frequently fighting and abusing each other and/or their children. Divorce probably would have been the better option for the emotional and mental well-being of the children involved. Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Henry Lee Lucas, Arthur Shawcross and Gary Ridgway come to mind.
     
  11. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    This side issue will take an entire discussion of it's own to cover. If you want to test this one let's drop the rest, if you want to debate the rest let's drop this one.

    Allah has definite characteristics: he is not a father, has no son, is not a triune being but a single (and thus incomplete) entity who destroys rather than saves sinners, has compassion on only the righteous, does not deal in grace but only rewards good deeds, has no way to redeem the lost sinners, etc. Allah is not the God of the Bible.
    IS ALLAH


    Islamic Doctrine As
    Found In The Koran
    Christian Doctrine As Found In The Bible
    The Trinity
    God is not three in one.
    "O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit [sic.] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is better for you! - Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son...The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah." Quran [004.171 ]
    They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Quran [005.073]

    God is three in one.
    Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    Other Bible verses proving the Triunity of YHWH:
    Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9, 30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36- 38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29

    The Deity Of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is only a slave.
    "And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! The folk laugh out, and say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk. He is nothing but a slave on whom we bestowed favor, and we made him a pattern for the Children of Israel. And had we willed it we would have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth". Quran [043.057-060]

    Jesus Christ is Almighty God.
    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    Other Bible verses that prove Jesus Christ is YHWH:
    1. Rom. 10:9-13, Phil. 2:9-11, Heb. 1:10, 1 Pet. 2:34, Psa. 34:8a, Pet. 2:4-8, 1 Pet. 3:14-15: (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5

    Jesus Death - Salvation Jesus Christ was not crucified.
    "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. ... And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness against them (Christians)." (Quran, 004:156-159)

    Jesus Christ was crucified to make atonement for our sins.
    2 Corinthians 13:4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God’s power we will live with him to serve you.
    Mark 16:6 "Don’t be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.

    Other Bible verses that prove Jesus Christ was crucified:
    Matthew 20:19, 26:2, 27:26, 27:35, 27:38, 27:44, 28:5, Mark 15:15, 15:24, 15:25, 15:27, 15:32, 16:6, Luke 23:23, 23:33, 24:7, 24:20, John 19:16, 19:17, 19:20, 19:23, 19:32, 19:41, Acts 2:36, 4:10, Romans 6:6, 1 Corinthians 1:13, 1:23, 2:2, 2:8, 2 Corinthians 13:4, Galatians 2:20, 3:1, 5:24, 6:14, Revelation 11:8

    The Sovereignty Of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is just a messenger of Allah and Mohammed.
    "Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One (Ahmad). But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" Quran [061.006]

    Jesus Christ is the First and Last, The Word.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    Other Bible verses that prove the soveregnty of Jesus Christ:
    John 1:1; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3, John 5:26, Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8, John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2, Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph.1:23; 4:10: Col. 3:11, John 16:30; 21:17; cf. 2:23-24, Matt. 11:25-27

    The Lordship Of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ Is Not Lord
    They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). Quran [009.031]

    Jesus Christ Is Lord
    Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


    Jesus Christ, The Son Of God God has no son.
    "Say He is God, the One and Only God, the, Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!" Qur'an [112:1-4]
    They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one. All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals. Quran: [19:88-95]
    In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
    Quran [005.017]
    They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Quran [005.072]
    It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Quran [019.035]

    God has a Son.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


    Creation Creation In Six Days, No Day Of Rest
    "We have created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six days, and no fatigue touched us. " Qur'an 50:38

    Creation In Six Days, Day Of Rest
    "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED, and was REFRESHED" Exo. 31:17

    Incarnation & Virgin Birth Jesus A Sign Only
    Then [Mary] said, "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said, "So (it will be) Your Lord said, "That is easy for me: and we wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a mercy from us. It is a matter (So) decreed. Qur'an [19:20]

    Jesus Born Of The Holy Spirit, The Son Of God
    Luke 1:34-35 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    Jihad Fight Against Your Enemies
    Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,- Quran [004.095]
    O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things. Quran [005.054]
    Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. Quran [009.016]
    O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! Quran [060.001]
    When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies. Quran [004.101]
    Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. Quran [008.059-060]

    Love Your God, Your Neighbors, And Your Enemies - Pray For Them
    Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    Matthew 5:43-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


    Jesus & His Disciples Jesus Helper Of Allah, His Disciples Muslims
    When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.Quran [003.052 ]

    Jesus Son Of God, His Disciples Followers Of Jesus
    Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
    Matthew 4:19 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
    Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    Is Allah The Same As YHWH?

    1.The Name of God
    Muslims say they believe in the prophet Moses (Musa) yet they do not recognize or acknowledge the unique name that God gave to Moses.

    When Moses encountered the burning bush at Mount Horeb, he was told that the name of God was YHWH forever. [Exodus 3:14-15] Jesus used the first person of YHWH when he said “I AM”. [John 8:58] The Quran makes no mention of the special name for God and uses Allah which means “the God”. There were 360 idols in the Kaaba during Mohammed’s time called Allah. Allah is just a generic name for “the God”.

    The names for God can’t be reconciled. Allah is not God.

    2. God’s Laws for mankind

    Moses received the Ten Commandments on two stone tablets from God on the mountain top. These commandments are the basis for laws recognized by both Jew and Christian. In fact, Jesus stated that : “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law. I have come to fulfil, and until heaven and earth pass away, not one stroke of a letter will pass from the Law”. [Matthew 5:17-18] Sharia Law which is based on the Quran and Mohammed completely rejects the Ten Commandments and Mohammed broke most of the commandments on a regular basis.

    If you follow Sharia law you will certainly break the Ten Commandments and this denies the teaching of Jesus. Jesus went further and said that whoever breaks the law and teaches others to do the same is considered “the least in Heaven”. [Matthew 5:19] That makes Mohammed the least in Heaven.

    Allah’s laws are contradictory to God’s laws. Allah is not God.

    3. God’s Plan for Mankind

    God revealed his plan for mankind through his prophets, starting with Psalm 2 about 1,000BC where he revealed the begotten son, and in Psalm 22 he revealed details of the crucifixion that Jesus would endure and then in Isaiah 48 he revealed the Holy Trinity about 700BC.

    God announces a begotten Son; Allah denies a begotten Son

    “You are my Son: today I have begotten you. I will make the nations your heritage and the ends of the earth your possession”. [Psalm 2:7-8]

    But 1600 years later, the Quran denies what is written in the Psalms.

    “He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything”. [Sura 6.101]

    So here Allah denies what God has stated.

    God announces the Holy Trinity; Allah denies the Holy Trinity

    God’s eternally begotten Son is part of the Trinity.

    “From the time it came to be, I have been there, and now the Lord God has sent me and His Spirit”. [Isaiah 48:16] Here is God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit as spoken by the prophet Isaiah.

    Yet from Sura 5:73, the Quran denounces the Trinity.

    “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah”.

    God announces the crucifixion; Allah denies the crucifixion

    The virgin birth [Isaiah 7:14] and birth in Bethlehem [Mica 5:2] foretold Jesus appearance. Details of the crucifixion were given in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, the betrayal for 30 pieces of silver in Zechariah 11 and that the sun would go down at noon was in Amos 8:9. However Allah denies all this in Sura 4:157.

    “That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them”.

    God announces the sonship and describes the crucifixion about 1000BC and announces the Holy Trinity about 700BC, but Allah denies each element of God’s plan. Allah is not God.

    4. God demands separation of church and state

    From Abraham to Moses to Jesus, there was a strict separation of church and state. Abraham was served with wine by High Priest Melchizedek. [Genesis 14] Moses was served by High Priest Aaron and Jesus acted as the High Priest and served his disciples with wine. [Matthew 26:26-29] There is a story in 1 Samuel 13 where king Saul performed priestly duties and God removed his kingship because of this. God demanded separation of church and state. Jesus also said to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” enforcing the separation of church and state. Islam demands totalitarianism and also has banned wine.

    God demands separation of church and state while Allah demands totalitarianism. Allah is not God.

    5. God’s Holy city is Jerusalem

    Jerusalem is the Holy city of God and Jerusalem is mentioned in the Torah over 660 times and in the New Testament 154 times. The book of Revelation in chapter 21 states that a new Jerusalem will arrive indicating that Jerusalem is God’s Holy city forever. Mecca is not mentioned once by name in the Bible.

    Mecca is the Holy city of Allah and Jerusalem is not mentioned once by name in the Quran.
    God and Allah claim two different Holy cities that can never be reconciled. Allah is not God.

    6. The Dome of the Rock

    In 637AD when caliph Umar captured Jerusalem he told Bishop Sophronius that they would build a shrine to Allah’s prophet on the Holy mountain. Sophronius understood a prophecy of Daniel which called this an abomination that desolates. The prophecy starts in 583BC, the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, when the last group of 745 people were taken to Babylon, and so the regular burnt offerings ceased. [Jeremiah 52:30] Now the scope of this prophecy is 1290 years of 360 days or 1271 solar years. Coming forward from 583BC by 1271 years we come to 688AD. Caliph Abdul Malik built the Dome of the Rock between 685 and 691AD, so 688AD is the midpoint of the building program.

    So the shrine to Allah’s prophet is called an Abomination that Desolates by God.
    Mohammed is not mentioned even once in the Bible and Jesus said that only false prophets would come after him. That makes Mohammed a false prophet. Allah is not God.

    7. The Fate of Mecca

    Even though Mecca is not mentioned by name in the Bible, it is referred to in allegorical language as the harlot city and the LovePeddler of Babylon in Revelation 17 & 18. Babylon the mother of whores and abominations is drunk with the blood of the saints and the witnesses to Jesus [Revelation 17:5-6]. Mecca is the spiritual head of Islam and in her name millions of Jews and Christians have been slaughtered after cries of “Allahu Akbar”, and the slaughter continues today. Mecca and Medina (Yathrib) are the two most Holy sites in Islam, yet strangely in Islamic eschatology, both are destroyed. Consider now the two relevant prophecies.

    “The final battle will be waged by faithful Muslims coming on the backs of horses, carrying black banners. They will stand on the east side of the Jordan river and will wage war that the Earth has never seen before. The true Messiah who is the Islamic Mahdi, will defeat Europe, will lead this army of Seljuks. He will preside over the world from Jerusalem because Mecca would have been destroyed.” [Yawm Al-Ghadab, Safar Alhwaly]

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu'adh ibn Jabal)”. [Sunan of Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4281: Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal]

    God hates Mecca and will destroy it. Allah can’t stop the destruction of his holy city. Allah is not God.

    8. God’s enemies are Allah’s supporters

    There are numerous places in the Bible where God names the nations who will fight against him and with the Antichrist. In the famous seventy weeks prophecy, it is the people of the Antichrist who destroy the temple in 70AD. The soldiers of the Roman legion X Fretensis under General Titus were from Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Arabia. These nations today whose people destroyed the second temple in 70AD are Islamic. In Psalm 83, Isaiah 13-24 and Ezekiel 28-32 and 38, the nations named as following the Antichrist are Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan and Libya.

    The Bible is consistent in naming Islamic countries where people follow Allah as the followers of the Antichrist.
    Allah is not God.

    9. God created mankind as equals, Allah didn’t

    The Bible states clearly that all equal in God’s eyes, but this is not true with Allah.

    Allah describes a hierarchy for mankind.

    Arab male Muslims are the best of people (and Arabic is the language in Heaven)

    White male Muslims are next in importance
    Black male Muslims are next
    Women Muslims are the lowest order of the believers
    Non Muslims or infidels are the vilest of creatures. [Sura 8:55]
    God states all people are equal, Allah does not agree. Allah is not God.

    10. God hates what Allah allows

    The Bible states clearly in the book of Proverbs 6:17-19 the six things that God hates.

    Haughty eyes
    A lying tongue
    Hands that shed innocent blood
    A heart that devises wicked plans
    Feet that hurry to run to evil
    A lying witness who testifies falsely.

    God hates haughty eyes but Allah gives Muslims haughty eyes by telling them they are the best of people and unbelievers are the vilest of people;

    God hates a lying tongue, but Allah allows Muslims to lie in Sura 16.106;

    God hates hands that shed innocent blood yet Allah demands the killing of unbelievers, apostates, homosexuals, and even Muslims who don’t follow the true faith;

    God hates a heart that devises wicked plans yet Allah approves of Muslims who want to destroy Israel, blow up infrastructure and plan to undermine western democracies through lying and deceit;

    God hates feet that hurry to run to evil but Allah approves of Muslims who murder poets and filmmakers and try to kill people who draw cartoons about Mohammed;

    God hates a lying witness yet Allah demands that a Muslim lies to protect or advance the cause of Islam.
    From these six things that God hates, we see clearly that Allah is not God.

    We have presented just ten reasons why Allah is not God. There are many more but these are sufficient to prove without a doubt that Allah is not God and Islam is based on a monumental lie.

    Ten Reasons Why Allah Is Not God AND Why YHWH is GOD - Religion - Nigeria


    Do you not see how involved this side bar issue will be?





    The bible says all men fall short, and that any man who claims to be free of sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. It says that all have fallen short. Yes God saved 8 and killed the rest. It says he did so because the rest of mankind only thought of evil and did so all the time. It does not say anything about the rest having no value or the eight being perfect. Being righteous is not being perfect nor having more value before God. It is to be in right standing before God.

    Murdering you is not wrong because you do not like it. Whether I see anything wrong with an action or not has nothing to do with whether that act is wrong or right. Mankind has no ability what so ever to make any action right or wrong.
     
  12. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Where did this question come from? Laying out what the bible says about slavery is a complicated issue. Some of the highlights would be.

    1. God does not desire slavery, as with divorce it was only allowed because of our sin.
    2. It's provisions allowing it were only given to one nation for a period of time. They have applied to no one for over 2000 years.
    3. Here are 100 verses against allowing any kind of generalized slavery.
    What Does the Bible Say About Anti-slavery?

    So it depends on what your question about slavery concerns. Since this question was out of the blue and had no context I did not know how to respond.



    It is expected that anyone wanting to complain about God will dig up verses from thousands of years ago never given as any kind of generalized proclamation, or as God's original intention, and which have not applied to anyone in 2000 years.

    Let me ask you this how is God for slavery, IOW if slavery is his goal and desire why is it completely absent in heaven where his intentions are fully realized.
     
  13. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Well it was a sloppy claim but I would bet it holds true to a large extent. I am always looking at top ten lists and watching non-fictional crime dramas. I have found that those who commit horrific crimes come from broken homes, an abusive childhood, or some similar experience so often as to be causally linked. Since my claim was sloppy and not originally intended to stand up against scrutiny let me amend it to be such.

    So many of those who act in ways that horrify the general public have been shown to come from broken homes, abusive childhoods, etc...... that they are considered a significant factor in the person's moral breakdown. The context was that the general breakdown in the family unit is a moral issue. IOW the general breakdown in the family unit increases immorality in general. There I have not bothered to verify it but I think that statement can bear scrutiny. My statements are meant (though they do not always meet) to meet the standards inherent in the context they were made. When they are taken out of that context and subjected to new standards they often may fail as originally stated. My intent was to link breakdowns in the family unit with moral breakdown.
     
  14. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    It came from the post you made that I am responding to.

    My question was, and is, where in the bible does it say that slavery is wrong and/or immoral?

    You expected the wrong thing then because I have posted no verses. I've asked you where the bible declares that slavery is wrong or immoral.

    I have another question, and a better one, if you ask me. If god wanted us to know that slavery is wrong, why not just say so instead of going on at length about where to get slaves, how to deal with them, how long to keep them, how to mark them, etc.? He apparently had no problem declaring murder wrong (as in your example I was responding to), among hundreds of other things.
     
  15. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I would bet it doesn't hold true, and I've given some examples to back that up. I've spent a great deal of time in my life studying psychotics and serial killers and such from a psychological standpoint, which is why I was able to find fault with your claim. The people I listed above came from homes that were not "broken," as per your claim. Rather, their parents were married - a complete family unit, which you are advocating in favour of. (In fact you are stating that divorce and the break up of the family unit are immoral things.) Many were abusive homes for sure, as I stated above. But the fact that as children these people were subjected to emotional, physical and mental abuse wasn't dependent upon them growing up in a "broken home" - they actually grew up in unbroken homes. These people probably would have been much better off from a psychological standpoint had their parents been divorced.

    I'm sorry but your argument doesn't appear to hold up very well. If what you say is actually true, we should have a lot more psychotics on our hands, given the high divorce rates we currently have.
     
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  16. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Agreed.

    He does Proselytize a bit much o_O
     
  17. serp777

    serp777 Well-Known Member

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    I fail to see how I conceded the argument; in fact making this claim reflects a profound and serious misunderstanding of most of my important points. Some key points I made demonstrate, in fact, the impossibility and extreme implausibility of objective morality. For example, first there are an infinite number of moral statements you can make so it would require an infinite number of time to determine the correct objective moral values, thus its impossible. Such is the nature of infinity.This is simply a mathematical argument, so unless you disagree with the concept of infinity you cannot reject this argument.

    Second, God is an infinitely complex being and therefore would have insanely complex, or infinitely complex moral laws that unambiguously cover every possible moral event and predicament that could happen. No human could possibly hope to comprehend or figure out God's perfect objective moral laws in the entire lifespan of the universe. There wouldnt be enough atoms in the universe to record his objective moral laws. Presuming that an infinitely complex God's objective morals are simple, like the ten commandments, is an insult to God and a failure to recognize that there are a massive number of conditions to consider when making a moral consideration, especially for a perfectly intelligent being.

    Third, God knows that any written word would be subject to subjectivity and interpretation no matter what, so it would have been illogical for him to make objective moral laws and expect us to follow them. Furthermore, God made us imperfect and made our interpretations and morals subject to cultural and temporal relativism; thus God would have to be incompetent to make objective moral laws since morality is always changing in humanity, which he designed to happen in the first place! He wouldn't expect everyone to follow the same moral laws, and thus would likely have made relative, dynamic, and changing moral laws that depend on time and culture.

    This argument of assuming moral laws need to be objective and absolute if God exists is incredibly fallacious. So for objective moral laws to be true you need to assume God is illogical and capricious, which doesnt make any sense for a perfectly intelligent being. And if he made objective moral laws and then designed humans knowing that we wouldn't be able to follow objective moral laws for a variety of reasons, then God isn't in fact an objectively moral being, thus demonstrating a contradiction.

    Somehow you seem to think I accepted the version of God which you apparently believe exists, or that anyone else has for that matter, or that the discussions pertains purely to your interpretation of God. I only accepted to the point of deism for the sake of argument, so anything more than deism requires a massive burden of proof from you. My point has also been that even if God exists, objective morality doesn't have to exist, and is very unlikely to exist for that matter. And your concept of God contains assumptions of how God works and what his mind is like, which was never established as an axiom of the argument. The only recognized axioms is that God exists in this discussion.

    No, what are you talking about? Your first sentence is somewhat unclear. Our conversation is about the reality of objective morality or not and whether God existing entails objective morality.

    This is not a great argument and is actually just a version of an argument from popularity--because a bunch of humans tend to have somewhat similar morals in this day and age, therefore it must be roughly reflecting objective moral values. No, lol. So no, I would not assume that "given the fact that humanity comes up with very similar moral codes" (allegedly very similar) that therefore they are even remotely aligned with objective moral facts if they exist.And I reject the premise that humans have similar morality--simply look at the difference between the muslims world and the liberal democratic world. Look at those countries which find genital mutilation, slavery, and genocide to be morally acceptable for whatever reason. We are essentially random morality machines--humans align with whatever morality best helps with survival, which is why so many different behaviors exist. Since adaptation circumstances change over thousands of years, so too has morality (through cultural evolution partially).Its also another false assumption that objective moral landscape holds every advantage; if objective morality consists of some slavery, some genocide, some ethnic cleansing, etc (and thus all of these things become objectively moral if God wills it so), then it is vastly inferior. And since you cant determine objective morality you don't know it doesnt contain these things.

    Ironically you're constructing a strawman of my argument and ignoring the context. I never said you said you were a moral source. The point was merely that because you aren't an objective moral source, so it makes the entire enterprise of trying to determine objective morals futile since you would never know if you're correct. I would in fact say that you've simply failed to comprehend the subtlety in most of my arguments rather than my arguments taking your position out of context. God, knowing that it would be impossible to determine objective morality with any certainty, wouldn't have made objective moral values for us.

    This argument is worthless essentially. Your entire framework depends on a lot of assumptions that you haven't demonstrated are even likely. I was willing to accept a deistic version of God for the sake of an argument not the arbitrarily interpreted, subjective God that you have constructed. There's no good reason or evidence you've provided that the biblical God should be the correct God. There are an infinite number of possible Gods you can construct and so the probability of you making the correct God is essentially zero; it requires a huge leap of faith to jump from the deistic God to the God that cares about human morality and who we have sex with and what holy days we observe.And as ive shown its logically inconsistent with God that he have objective moral values.

    And you've presumed that, in fact, the bible accurately represents God, which is of course a fallacy since human SUBJECTIVITY is what determined the contents of the bible in the first place, even if God did have something to do with it. I simply reject that God is the biblical God and i reject that the bible accurately demonstrated the christian God unambiguously, just as you, for whatever reason, reject my alleged nihilistic interpretation. Unless you have some evidence it is equivalent to the assumption that the celestial teapot exists.

    I don't accept that any thing is certain except for the fact that nothing is entirely certain. Nothing can be demonstrated to be certainly true, especially morality.
     
    #1257 serp777, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
  18. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Yes. We are clearly dealing with two different gods who both claim to have created the universe. I'll just let the Christians and the Muslims fight over which one exists.
    Sorry 1Robin but you just can't claim that life is sacred men are equal and humans have objective worth and value and then defend drowning practically everybody.
    Your Jesus apparently said: "Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." So obviously it is wrong to do to others what you wouldn't like them to do to you. The essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets is that you shouldn't do to others what you wouldn't like them to do to you!
     
    #1258 ArtieE, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
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  19. serp777

    serp777 Well-Known Member

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    Yes this is quite true. Psychopathy is often genetic--the part of the brain responsible for empathy is significantly smaller as shown by an mri. Transcranial magnetic stimulation can also disable this part of the brain leading to psychopathic tendencies. Assuming God created us and guided our development, God is clearly not an objectively moral entity by creating and allowing for psychopaths to exist. 1robin has also failed to show evidence of any kind that broken homes cause psychopathy, and since he made that argument he has the burden of proof, which is in addition to the fact that the argument doesnt stand up very well. I have
     
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  20. serp777

    serp777 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that anything God does is moral. A genocide solicited by God is good. Slavery suggested by the lord is moral. The Christian definition of moral is essentially that which God does since he is a perfectly moral being. So he can make that claim a flood committed by God is good while genocide by humans is not. Is it totally inconsistent behavior from God? Yes. Is it highly contradictory and insulting to their God? Certainly. But under his assumptions he has to say that anything God does is moral, no matter what he does. Humans, on the other hand, are subject to arbitrary , unknowable objective morality while God can do whatever he want and maintain his morality. Its one of the crucial fallacies in Christianity. A christian has to in fact argue that genocide and mass rapes against the various tribes in the old testament are good because God commanded it. SO essentially a christian can justify any morality they want by picking and choosing. Its thoroughly incomprehensible.
     
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